Not All of Us Agree

If you are embarrassed about being an American…you can change that…and I see elsewhere that you are 21 and a DJ…so……..go to Europe, become a Frenchman…and play your music…what’s stopping you…that way…another place will be open for all of the foreigners who are risking their lives everyday to get to America and have a better life…By the way, please do not play our American Music when you leave…you MUST leave all things American behind…after all, it would embarrass you…

The original post here makes me sad. Everyone has a right to their opinion and I respect his. The only way I can grasp the motivation behind such an attitude is hoping it comes from age and inexperience.

You certaintly do not have to agree with the war or support it, but to say it is embarrassing to be American is disgraceful. I would like to think it comes from not realizing what this country affords you, the freedome, the opportunities, the comforts. Maybe it is the lack of travel and education about the rest of the world (outside of the U.S. and France)that would make you feel that way.

"It was then that I started to realize that my opinions differed drastically from those of my countrymen about what we should be doing as a country".

No matter where you live you will always find that there are people who’s opinions differ drastically from yours. That is not isolated to the U.S. One difference is that in some countries you cannot voice those opinions.

I try to stay out of political discussions, but I’ve always felt that my grand-father, my father, my husband and my daughter fought in foreign wars to preserve our freedom and the one of those freedoms was the freedom to have and voice our opinion.

If the gentleman above is embarrassed to be an American, that is his opinion and he should be allowed to voice it without being called names or told to leave the country. If he wants to act politically to try to change what he doesn’t like about his country, he has the freedom to do that. If he wants to leave his country, he has the freedom to do that

I think it is very important (what people fought and died for) to be able to form and express opinions that are unpopular. I think it is fine to disagree with him, but not to tell him he shouldn’t have his opinion. He is entitled to his opinion just as you and I are entitled to our opinions.

SalB, I agree.

In fact, I find it a little ironic that Ikorrelim’s posts extoll freedom in the USA while at the same time denying people the right to express their ideas of feelings if they’re not in accord with hers. It seems to me that where democracy should start… Ain’t that strange?

So, yes, because someone is not in full agreement with the Bush administration does not brand them as traitors. Maybe you don’t agree with their position but calling them names does not advance the issue.

As for cementprophet, don’t feel embarassed or ashamed of being an American! Instead, come November, use your right as a citizen to voice your opinion. You will have done your duty and nobody can blame you or the US democracy for that. Right?

G.

Gaston:

I agree that it is CEMENTPROFIT’S right to voice his opinion…that is one thing that our Forefather’s guaranteed…He is young, and I could have been more "soft" in my approach to him…However, I do agree with you that he should exercise his right to try and change what he does not like about this country…HEY, isn’t that what makes us so unique?

It does get tiring sometimes to hear so many voices of "discontent" with the way things are…but they offer no solutions…just a complaint…I had a boss not long ago…a Commander in the Navy…I loved his approach to his 500 employees…and it was, "When you come into my office with a problem, bring the solution"…If we would all strive to bring a solution with our problem to the table…What a GREATER place the USA would be…

If you think that my patriotism is overbearing…sometimes I like to play the devils advocate…However, I am a real live niece of my Uncle Sam…

CementProphet: Cheer up! One of the great beauties of this Country is our collective resiliency. It won’t be long before the nation will get fed up with the right wing hawks that is currently pushing our economy down the rat hole and weakening our standard of living. We can then ease back into the mainstream of civilized nations. Thanks, SalB and Gaston, your observations are first class, as usual. Oh yes, SalB thanks also for that site "mappy.fr." It is really neat! Donerail

If you enjoyed the mappy.fr web site, try this one.
http://photos.pagesjaunes.fr/

You can type in an address (all over France but particularly Paris) and you get an actual photograph of the building at that address. There are little arrows where you can look up and down the street and on nearby streets. It’s great when you want to see the neighborhood of the hotel you are checking.

Sometimes it’s fun just to "sneak a peak" at France between trips to remind yourself that that magical place really does exist.

SalB: Thanks, You’ve become my internet Concierge. Donerail

Thanks, Sal. This site sounds very interesting. I will check it out.

The website "Photos.PagesJaunes" was very interesting. Thanks, Sal B.
It requires that I put in the Exact address number…but not needed is the Zip code. It did exclude a certain hotel site in Marseille…but I hope that isn’t a bad sign about that hotel.
It gives address photos in 3 good views of each address. It didn’t cover Toulon, but it covers the 13 biggest French cities. The photos are very real. They are definitely not what Expedia, etc. gives.
On my last trip to Paris, I printed out a couple maps from Mapquest and packed them. I should have spent $7.95 at Borders on "Insight Paris" street map. I got lots of extra walking in…If it wasn’t for the lit dome of Sacre Coeur, and Moulin Rouge landmark, and the Good Maps at the Metro stops…I would have been really lost.

danairozo: A good map is worth its weight in gold. There are many nice ones for Paris. My company was putting me up at the Royal Monceau a few years back and I "picked up" a pocket French map of Paris. It was about 3" x 5" and I "picked it up" at the concierge desk. Given what the rates were for the Royal Monceau, I thought this little pocket size map was free. I used it all that day and it was a real delight. Later I found there was a price tag on the back for 11FF (about $3.50 at the time). When traveling by car, you definately need a Michelin road map. Amazon.com has them. Regards, Donerail

yes, the pagesjaunes.fr is great ) i go to the photos page. You can type in the name of a street of Paris and "walk" down the street just by following the arrows ) i usually "walk" down rue Mouffetard my favorite neighborhood in Paris

On the subject of maps, an excellent "walking" map of Paris is the "Paris Pratique par Arrondissement" that is sold at news stands, tabacs and bookstores all over Paris. I got one at Borders in the US. It’s about 5 x 7 inches so you can stick it in a suit pocket or purse easily. It has a street index that lists every street and alley in Paris and it has Metro, RER and bus maps of the city.

There’s another "Mapguide" that is equally good, but it’s a bit larger and more difficult to carry around.

Someone above mentioned a Michelin for driving in France. We always get a new yellow Michelin "France Tourist and Motoring Atlas" every time we go over. It’s spiral bound and I manage to shred one every trip. They’ve recently come out with a smaller 9 X 12 inch format that looks a bit easier to pack.

I actually agree. The image of Americans is that we seem to love our country and freedoms a little too much. And some folks do, telling those stories of how their great-granfathers fought in past wars to protect our freedoms.
I suppose everyone can say how wonderful their country is (even waving around the confederate flag in the south) all the time, but things like renaming "French Fries" to "Freedom Fries" is rather pointless.
So, what if France didn’t join us in the war? They have a freedom to say no, too.

choco, well said.

I agree with CementProphet that the U.S. is changing. It hopefully is changing for the better. I do hope that people like CementProphet packup and leave. I am 60 years old and I have seen the bad changes come to the U.S.. When I was young, the family could leave the house and NOT lock the door. Now if you don’t lock the door to your house and it gets robbed YOU are the guilty party. When I was young the rate of teenagers having babies was very low, even without abortion. When I was young there was not even the thought of gay marriage. I ask my self why? I will tell you why. The U.S. has become to liberal. Now there isn’t anything wrong with being somewhat liberal so that you and your country can stay up with the pace of evolution. I used to be one of those that said "The young need more information about sex." It looks like I was wrong. The more education there is the more the young girls are having babies that they can’t take care of. I have learned that liberal is not so good. Mr. CementProphet is too young to know this fact. The U.S. was right to go into Afganistan, and Iraq. The French will soon find this out because just today the Muslim extremists gave France a warning about terror attacks in France. Now you Frenchmen watch your Eifle Tower. They will blow it up. Ha, Ha. I laugh not because this is funny but because it is ironic. The French let the muslims into their country with an open heart and now the muslims are telling the French how to run their country. I say that it is alright to allow foreign people to live in your country but they must follow the laws. I do not want Eqyptians going to the U.S.–France–Italy, and trying to make a little Cairo out of it. I do not want people from Mexico to come to the U.S., or France or anywhere else and try to make a little Mexico City out of our country. At some time this will all get to a criticle point and there will be hell to pay. The French will do well to kick ALL the muslims out of their country. Long live the U.S. and George Bush.

Choco, It isn’t the fact that France choose not to go into Iraq with the U.S. that is so upsetting. It is the fact of Why. The French, and I am talking about Mr. Chrac, had their hand in Saddam’s pocket all along. The money that was supposed to be for the Iraqi people was going to politicians like Chrac, Schorder, and Putin. These countries just wanted to protect their investment and to hell with the Iraqi people. Now the French, Germans, and Russians want to be part of the rebuilding force so that they can get to the money again. If you ask the Iraqi people they will tell you that they do not want the U.N. in their country.

frankessary: I was very saddened to read your post. You are only two years older than me and your message struck me as being written by someone much, much, older. I believe the messages above from CementProphet, Gaston, and SalB are more representative of the hope for America. America is twice as populated as when we were born. We have a much easier and more affluent life now than in the generation before us. We live longer and are more healthy. Our ancestors and contemporaries have (for the most part) fought to prevent abuses of power. Yes, we have not been perfect. Slavery, labor strife, and the way we treated Native Americans are examples that quickly come to mind. Then there are also the "speed bumps" of the religious, right wing cabal of McCarthy, Nixon, Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II. But life is still easier now and we have the knowledge and capacity to make it better. How you could attribute illegitimacy rates to more education is beyond my comprehension. You sound like one of the radical Islamics that cannnot cope with a modern, changing world. Yes, it would be nice if all things were simpler and less risky. But a return to colonialism and racism is not and should not be in the cards. Your pals Bush, Cheney, Pearle, Rice, Rumsfeld, et al may temporarily succeed in reducing our freedoms and standard of living while at the same time encouraging justifiable world-wide criticisms of us. But their success will be temporary. As a freedom loving, opportunity driven Nation – we will not put up with it. The religious right in this nation is just as intolerant as the Mullahs and Ayatollahs in the Mideast. And by the way, (and I think a lot of the French recognize this as well), most of the jobs that we look at with disdain – are being performed by immagrints who have come to this land looking for a better way of life. Think of that the next time your garbage and trash is taken away, or your car is washed, or your crops are harvested, or your bedpan is emptied. I thought you would be older as your remind me of my parents in some ways. I don’t think my parents were racist as they didn’t have the ability to deny rights to others that were not like them. But they were very prejudiced. I still find myself having some of those tendencies towards intollerance that I learned from them – but I understand now that those are not conducive to healthy growth. Maybe this is being Liberal. If so, I look forward to becoming even more Liberal. Donerail

donerail: wonderfully eloquent

No Donerail,

This is not just some type of conspiriousy theory:

http://www.forbes.com/markets/newswire/2003/12/30/rtr1193929.html

You seem to say that he is of the older generation as if it was a insult. Yes our past and history is relivent and the laws of human nature are constant therefore things tend to happen again.

"There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness."

hello all

amero-franc and frankessary: since you both quote history so much, please let me do the same;

USA gave Sadaam bio/chemical weapons during the iran-iraq war. USA gave Iran weapons during the same war. USA played both sides of the coin in the conflict, making the situation WORSE. USA trained Osama Bin Laden and then he used all that american taxpayer funded training against the USA (y’all see a pattern here?)

Sadaam invades Kuwait (which used to be a part of iraq until the british left and carved up the arab region into the countries you have there today). USA drives him out of Kuwait, follows UN resolution and stops before overtaking Baghdad (the one good thing Bush Sr. did, following the resolution). Sadaam taunts and heckles USA, insulting the USA ego, of which americans have a LOT of (ego, that is).

sadaam rebuilds his country and do you think he’s going to invite AMERICAN companies to compete for contracts? invite companies from the very country that just killed about 100,000 of your army and citizens? If Mexico invaded the southern USA and tried to reclaim texas, arizona, california, would you want to hire mexican companies to rebuild the war damage after the USA went to war and kicked them out of those states?

Bush the son is elected, stating in his inaugural speech, "…we are going to go after weapons of mass destruction…" Bush accuses iraq of WMD, makes speeches on national TV about it, harps continously on the hidden weapons. Bush the son ignores the UN, ignores Hans Blix, ignores the WHOLE WORLD and invades iraq. During invasion, OIL FIELDS are secured by americans, in baghdad, a TANK guards the iraqui national ministry of oil…where were the tanks to guard the museums? the palaces? the schools? the hospitals? but tanks to guard only the oil records…interesting…

No WMD have been found, because there weren’t any..and now the Bush admin wants you to think this was about freeing the iraqi people…if it WAS about people, then he would of guarded the schools, museums, hospitals, etc..the things that are the LIFEBLOOD of its citizens…

Haliburten (cheney’s old company) surely made a GREAT deal on this war…Bechtel, too…and now it’s coming out that Haliburten overcharged the USA government by MILLIONS…wonder what they’ll uncover about Bechtel in the future…

and now for the 9-11 inquiry in Washington that is uncovering all kinds of dirt about the present administration and Iraq…

Why would the future iraqi government want to exclude europe from bidding on oil contracts? it’s certainly not in their best interests to let only american companies and Haliburten run the country, as they are doing now…and if it will be truely a democratic country and not just a puppet government put in place by the USA, then they have every right to choose who will develop their country.

American conglomerates want all the profits for themselves. They accuse others of corruption, but they’re profiteering at the expense of the Iraqi people and of American taxpayers who are being overcharged for goods/services not promised.

let’s not forget the american soldiers! they are in the army for the love of their country, and they are being used by the Bush admin and the huge corporations for profit, revenge and personal gain. their blood is on the hands of haliburten, bush, cheney and the rest of their kind.

LaVieilleBranche: That is an excellent recap of current events. I couldn’t have composed it any better. Is ikorrellim, frankessary, and Amero-Franc paying you tuition for any of this? If so, I will be jealous as they have’t paid me any. Donerail

Amero-Franc: I think you were trying to say that History is relevant. I will certainly agree that History is relevant. How it applies to this thread along with your quote from some undescribed (Bible?)source is typically unclear. Take a moment and rethink what you are trying to say and give it another shot. Donerail

LaVieilleBranche,

First of all if we can’t be friends with a country we can at least have a common enemy. Have you ever read Sun Tzu’s "The Art of War" or know any thing about millatary history? It’s best to have as few enemies as you can handle and use those who could posably be your ememies later to fight them. That way not only have you weakened you current enemy, but also someone who might be in the future.

About the US supporting both sides of the Iran Iraq conflict; we weren’t supporting both sides at the very same time. We supported one when we had to deal with the USSR and the other when we had to deal with Iran.

ABout the US protecting the oil fields and not the Schools and other Infrastructures; First of all there isn’t much infrastructure is the most southern parts of Iraq except for the oil fields. ANd just in case you didn’t know, we invaded from the south.

About not letting France have first dibs in Iraq; Do you really think we can trust them with Iraq? They took advantage of them. They said, "hey how would you guys like to be more respected.?"

"Oh yes we need more respect"

"Okay what you guys need is some nuclear wepons."

"oh yes yes that will give us some respect"

"Then the US won’t be bossing you around anymore. Here we’ll build you some nuclear reactors. That should be what you need."

donerail,

I thought it had a connection since you where bashing the older generation. And by the way, you don’t have to get excited. It’s just an ancient proverb by a wise Asian king.

Amero-Franc: I think you may be a tad too defensive. Rather than thinking in terms of "enemies," why not think in terms that are more constructive? Like a "competitor" as opposed to an "enemy." Richard Nixon suffered from the same problem. Oh, by the way, the quote from the old Asian king had no impact on me. Send in another. Donerail

donerail: amero-franc is still rehashing the same old stuff and he’s getting boring…like a broken record. making up quotes, etc…if bush wanted to nuke france amero-franc might volunteer to be the first to push the button…

LaVieilleBranche: With regard to the nuke button. I think it would be a photo finish among Amero-Franc, frankessary, sweird and the General Haig of this Forum: ikorrellim. I think ikorrellim might have come up lame as she hasn’t made an appearance lately. I miss her so. Donerail

amero-franc:

you say, "ABout the US protecting the oil fields and not the Schools and other Infrastructures; First of all there isn’t much infrastructure is the most southern parts of Iraq except for the oil fields. ANd just in case you didn’t know, we invaded from the south."

lots of looting went on in BAGHDAD, where the oil ministry was located, where the usa put their tank to protect it… but ignored the schools, hospitals, etc…women were afraid to leave their homes for fear of violent crime, and american soldiers said, sorry we have no jurisdiciton to protect you..but they sure had jurisdiction to protect the oil ministry….

freeing the iraqui people….please…what a line of horse manure…

you also said, "About not letting France have first dibs in Iraq; Do you really think we can trust them with Iraq? They took advantage of them. " France didn’t take advantage of anmybody! they were offered contracts after the gulf war1 and they accepted them, much like any american company would of accepted contract deals if they had been offered…read my [past post in this thread to see WHY sadaam offered contract to europe and NOT the usa…a little thing called gulf war1..

you also said, "About not letting France have first dibs in Iraq; Do you really think we can trust them with Iraq? They took advantage of them. They said, "hey how would you guys like to be more respected.?"

"Oh yes we need more respect"

"Okay what you guys need is some nuclear wepons."

"oh yes yes that will give us some respect"

"Then the US won’t be bossing you around anymore. Here we’ll build you some nuclear reactors. That should be what you need." "

please…/.show me from WHAT SOURCE you got this quote? what newspaper/media source did you take this quote from? and if you aren’t quoting anybody, then HOW would YOU know what was said? or are you just making this up, as usual?

another thing, stop thinking in terms of enemies…the world isn’t our enemy, but it will be if people like you don’t stop calling them enemies

First of all you’re totally wrong. There are very few if any oil fields near Bagdad. The largest group is near Al Basra (next to the mother load in Kuwait). The second largest group is around Kirkuk up in Kurd-land (ever wander why he so hated the Kurds. Well just follow the money). The only other major group is noth of Al ‘Amarah. There are a small oil fields noth east of Tikrit, noth east of Khanaqin, one just out on Iran south of Khanaqin and North of AL Mawsil (Mosul). I’m sure Bagdad would have a few rustic oil rigs, but nothing to write home about. They probably produce the least amount of oil of all the other regons. (What you might be confused with is when Saddam was going to light some type of fire ring around the city that was filled with some type of product of crude oil. It might have been Gasoline.)

Secondly, Why does it mater if France made a deal with Iraq. Because it’s in clear ditrect violation of the UN and then they come right around and bash us for loosely interpreting Resalution 1441. It’s what you guys call international law.

And about the quote. I think everyone else knew that was indended to be a quote of an actuial event, but it was a fact of what happened.

amero-franc:

i NEVER said there were oil fields in baghdad. i said the iraqi OIL MINISTRY, which IS located in baghad. please go back and RE-READ my post and you will see. you seem to have problems with reading posts properly, mine and donerail…do you know how to read above an 8th grade level?

yes, it does matter what the usa does. america has no right to critisize ANY country, when you look at our past involvement in the affaires of other countries. Iran/Iraq, pro-israel, anti-arab (who do you think pays for all those israeli army weapons that are used against the palestinians?) and let’s not forget South America, either. USA ignores the world, ignores the UN, and then has the audacity to critisize other foreign companies for making a LEGITIMITE contract in the past? i bet if american companies had been offered those contracts in the past, they would of taken them immediately and lobbied/bribed congress to enact a law that gave them a legal right to hold those contracts. Methinks i smell the stink of hypocracy here.

if your quote was an "actual quote" as you said, then tell me what source it comes from. If it was an ACTUAL fact, then show me the source. however, i think you just made it up carelessly, the same way you read posts carelessly.

Ma’am,

You’re right that the united States has given Israel many wepons. For one thing they are a nation that seems to care about nothing, but survival.

Secondly France has given Israel more Ballistic missiles than the U.S. Several times over. So if you’re worried about Israel becomming some type of evil empire, which I am not, BLame France.

The U.S. has only given Israel Lance Missles which has a range of only 130 KM (with a pay load of only 450 KG)

France on the other hand gave Israel the Jericho-1 Missle with the range of 500 KM (with a pay load of 1000KG)

Then France helped them develop the Jericho-2 with the range of 1500 KM (also with the pay load of 100Kg)

Now Israel is completly on their own making the Jericho-3 with the range of 2,500 KM (with undisclosed payload)

As you can see France helped make Israel become a Nuclear Power. And who do you think they would be using them on besides Arabs. NOt to mintion that Germany supplied Israel with three Subs which would put the range all over the world.

Look, I think you know I made up the quote to make a point not as an actuial conversation. It would be in French or Arabic if it was. I think everyone else understood that I didn’t put the actuial people who were selling them

amero-franc:

i know france/germany are allies of israel…interesting how israeli jews got over the german problem years ago, but american jews cannot….

but just WHO do you think gives money to israel to pay for all those weapons? look in the mirror…it’s our tax money going over there. who do you think pays for those (missle shooting) helecopters that shoot missles into gaza/west bank towns? our tax money.

And yes, they do use those weapons against the palestinians…and ignore the UN resolution declaring the settlements ilegal/get out of palestinian land. But of course israel ignores it, the USA supports this. NO suprise, considering how the USA ignores all UN resolutions that it doesn’t like….

interesting…usa overthrows sadaam, threatens libya, threatens iran and others about nuclear weapons yet does NOTHING about israel, instead supports them…pardon me while i spray air freshener..the smell of hypocracy is a foul stink.

so you MADE up the quote…you fabricated a quote and attempted to pass it off as truth….figures…

LaVieilleBranche,

First of all you’ve changed the topic from WMDs to other things like Apache Helecopters. We are not giving them Missiles with a name like Jericho (A town that was utterly distroyed, if you read your Bible,) that has a 1,500, now 2,500 KM, Radius.

We are merly giving them wepons for their servival; Wepons that are ment for presition warfare and direct combat.

Have you ever watched Sesame Street, " *Music* One of these things is not like the others. One of these things doesn’t belong…"

"Okay overhere we have a guy with a turban on his head holding a Kalashnikov Rifile and a Koran Forcing everyone he meets to become a muslem (from Syria). And over here we have a guy with a turban on his head holding a Kalashnikov Rifile and a Koran forcing everyone he meets be become a muslem (From Iran). And over here we have a guy with a turban on his head holding a Kalashnikov Rifile and a Koran forcing every one he meets to become a muslem. (Someone who is called a Palestinian). -And over here we have a guy with an Uzi tyring to defend his home from the others."

(Oh just in case you ask; no, it’s not an actuial quote. They did not actuially have this on Sesame Street. The tecnical name for quotation marks is inverted commas. So, posably that answers your question.)

Speaking of the UN. The UN origanly mandated that the whole land of the Brittish provence of Palestine Should be given over to the Free State of Israel. The Brittiah by the way also mandated this. After the Jordanians invaded, they totially iraticated any evidence of Judaism or Jewish invulance. Some of these things had been there for thousands of years and were still in use. Now, while Jordan owned this land There was a man in Jordan (on the eastren side on the Jordan river) named Yasser Arafat. He tryed to overthrow the government of Jordan, but Jordan, however, retaliated against Arafat and his people. They continuially Bombed their settlement untill they were forsed across the Jordan. After the 1967 war, the IDF troops recaptured the land that was origanially mandated by the UN and Brittan. After this time these people in the West Bank became known as Palestinians as seperate from the Israelis. If fact there were many Regiments in WWII that were known as the Palestinian Regiments because they were comprised of Jews.

These settelers in the West Bank are only trying to live in their homeland that was given to them in 1948 and was given to them 5,000+ years ago. Wow, That’s even older than France.

Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis! Et Vive L’Israël!

P.S. I want to thank whoever it is at google that has been putting my quotes up on the seach engine. He even put two of LaVeilleBranche’s quotes.

What I don’t understand is what the Palestinians are complaining about. A lot of them have an adiction to TNT, kind of the way a lot of people have an adiction the crack. They just can’t hold back their feddish long enough to get out of the crowd. Then Ka-boob!

Then the Israeli government trys to feed their adiction before they get near people by blowing them up with all these pricey gormet Bombs. It’s a kind of social program. Kind of like health care. Then the Palestinians who have too much self respect to take hand outs from the government get outraged.

Then the French who don’t understand the situation get mad at Israel. I think the French would understand it better if it was put in turms of a social program.

What I don’t understand is what the Palestinians are complaining about. A lot of them have an adiction to TNT, kind of the way a lot of people have an adiction the crack. They just can’t hold back their feddish long enough to get out of the crowd. Then Ka-boob!

Then the Israeli government trys to feed their adiction before they get near people by blowing them up with all these pricey gormet Bombs. It’s a kind of social program. Kind of like health care. Then the Palestinians who have too much self respect to take hand outs from the government get outraged.

Then the French who don’t understand the situation get mad at Israel. I think the French would understand it better if it was put in turms of a social program. You see if the I

some people here will always have closed minds…too bad for them…

Everybody have a very nice Easter. I’m getting ready to go to France and don’t know if I’ll have time to stop in here before I leave.

LaVieilleBranche, Enjoy your trip to France. Perhaps by the time you get back some of the posters above will have purchased and installed spell checkers!!

errmmmm, none of you know me as i havent posted before but i’m fascinated by this discussion as the Oil, the US and the middle east is the subject of my university dissertation.

i would like to point out that it is not just france that objects to american actions of late the people in the Uk do to (as i’m sure europe does on the whole). unlike in America we have a fair and balanced media (yes i’ve been to the states and read the media) who on a daily basis speak the voice of condemnation. my Govt (UK) may have supported the US on its phoney war and due to this phoney war, Blair and his lying govt will probably lose the election next year.

i have a step brother, a British soldier in Iraq right now who was appalled at the american military’ actions in regards to the oil fields. it is true there were specific orders to protect oil fields at the expense of humanitarian acts, such as the protection of iraqi civilians. i am proud of my country’s soldiers, i am not proud of my govt for sending them to war on false pretences. i feel british soldiers have excellent training and experience of northern ireland has helped them enormously in their conduct in Iraq. my step-brother repeatedley tells me, how iraqis tend to trust his uniform over an american. now i am not anti-american nor am i disrespecting the brave soldiers who have been put into this godforsaken position by their right wing war-mongering govt. but americans must ask themselves why?

is it because America used the middle east as a pawn in their chess game with the USSR destroying millions of lives and futures. or is it because of the current energy crisis in the US that they need oil. most of the 9/11 attackers were from saudi arabia but hey lets attack afghanistan. do you think the fact that Saudi Arabia with the largest reserves of oil in the world, some 600billion barrels might have something to do with it. i could go on and on about facts and historical evidence to argue my point, but i wont bore anyone. lets face facts, the people that run the US have been in the same ruling class ever since its independance from us evil british. the same class which destroyed vietnam in the name of ‘democracy’, the same class who is destroying the middle east in the name of oil sorry ‘freedom’. i feel for the US citizens, they are powerless in the face of such tyranny.

it amuses me when i saw the iraqi constitution had been guided by the US. the US is one of the most undemocratic countries in the world.

the way to change things is to get rid of bush first. get a third political party going that differ from the republicans/democrats, maybe call it ‘vive la france’ party. get them in power!

oh no that wouldn’t work because if a political party in the US was different to its rival then nothing would get done in govt, the house of representatives would say you can’t do this’. because in the US if two parties disagree drastically nothing would ever get done! especially domestically, you heard the one about the the last amendment to the bill of rights… it went through in ’92 i think. 200 years after it was proposed, just because a small state like wyoming (which has a 3cats and a dog) says no (incidently why don’t big states like New York get more reps?) how is any any of this democratic by the way not to mention the voting fiasco with bush. if i’m wrong on details, please correct me i’m writing off the top of my head.

by the way i love France and America, especially Montpellier and Boston! but the British still had the biggest and baddest empire ever 🙂 we invented the world he he… and don’t you just love it that the Bush family made it rich with Nazi gold, invested it in oil and had relations with the bin laden family. the world’s an odd place eh

tcooper:

a big WELCOME to the french forums! how nice to see an educated and aware person writing in here for a change. You are a breath of fresh air in this stodgy old forum.

I think the reason Bush has demonized France is because the USA has no real economic interest in France. Russia, China, and most of Europe was against this war. However, most of the goods that Americans buy in the shops are made in China. If the usa boycots China, then the shop shelves would be empty, companies in the usa would go bankrupt and people would lose their jobs by the millions. As for Russia, don’t we collaborate with them on a space station? That is a multi-billion dollar enterprise. but France….we have equal trade with them, there isn’t a trade imbalance with France as there is with China (we owe big foreign debt to china). So Bush can scapegoat France easily and have nothing to fear from corporations or the american people.

this is just my oponion. I could be wrong, but who knows?

by the way, you mentioned bush with nazi gold, and the bin laden family…you forgot the bush family relations with the House of Saud.

How ironic that Bush’s grandfather, Prescott Bush was involved with the Nazis and got his company messed indicted in the "trading with the enemy" law here in the states during WW2. Now look at his grandson, George Bush 2.

The family that betrays together, stays together.

LaVieilleBranche,?

First of all how is this relevant?

Ah, No I’m not sure it was illegal. In fact we bought a lot of lugars from the Germans (I believe at that time it was actually a Jewish Company, before they had their business taken away by the Nazi Socialist Party) that were then used against the Japanese. My grandfather actually had one, but didn’t know how valuable it was at the time.

You see it appears that France hasn’t remembered the mistakes they made before WWII. In order for a culture to survive, you don’t just make a bunch of rules of your own people and then try to be diplamatic with the Enemy. Most of Europe is going the way of pre-Nazi Germany. (now that I see the Pre in there, yes, I agree with you sweird)

The word "Nazi" was short for the National Socialist party. (which was actually short for something else) The Nazis were not a right wing group. It fact the only thing I can see that was different between Nazi Germany and the USSR is that Germany allowed private property. Really, They were just moderate communists with a crazy religion. Thus, the term Socialist.

They were obsessed with making their country secular as to push aside all the other religions, so that they could put in the new order of their religion and philosophy taken right out of page 74 of "the Descent of Man" which Hitler inserted in his book "Mein Kampf".

This is the same road that France, Germany and many other European nations are following in yet again and for some reason the u.S. has got what’s going on when usually it’s you guys over there that get it first and tell us and we don’t believe you.

Wake up Europe, oh our founding nations, before you are destroyed in your sleep!

This is why I say "Live The True France!" Vive La Vraie France!

Amero-Franc:

1) I was speaking to tcooper. Unless you decided to change your name, I was not adressing ANYTHING to you. However, I will correct your mistakes, this one being one of MANY.

2) You said, "Ah, No I’m not sure it was illegal. In fact we bought alot of lugars from the Germans (I beleive at that time it was actuially a Jewish Company, before they had their bussiness taken away by the Nazi Socialist Party) that were then used against the Japanese. My grand father actuially had one, but didn’t know how faluble at the time.." (ALL TYPING MISTAKES ARE AMERO-FRANC’S, I JUST COPY/PASTE).

Your (unsolicited) post has NOTHING to do with what tcooper said. You are confusing things again, as usual. Read the following:

http://www.lpdallas.org/features/draheim/dr991216.htm

If you do not read it CAREFULLY, I will then be forced to copy/paste the ENTIRE article into this forum. Maybe then you will read things carefully and respond with thought and intellegence. So far, i have seen neither intellegence nor thought from you.

3) Do you know HOW to PROOFREAD? Your posts are filed with so many misspellings! It’s TERRIBLE! LEARN HOW TO SPELL OR PROOFREAD! If you don’t have the common courtesy to check your posts before posting them for grammar errors or spelling mistakes, then I won’t reply to you any more! An occassional misspelling is one thing, we ALL do that. However, ALL your posts are terribly worded and spelled. LEARN PROPER ENGLISH!

4) There is a difference between the words uneducated/ignorant and stupid.
A person who is ignorant/uneducated is somebody who needs to be educated. Somebody who can learn, and learn well, provided they’re given the resources and educational materials.
A stupid person is one who cannot seem to understand, cannot seem to learn, no matter what is done, said or provided to that person to help them.

From everything I’ve seen here, YOu sir, are STUPID.

Amero-Franc:

1) I was speaking to tcooper. Unless you decided to change your name, I was not adressing ANYTHING to you. However, I will correct your mistakes, this one being one of MANY.

2) You said, "Ah, No I’m not sure it was illegal. In fact we bought alot of lugars from the Germans (I beleive at that time it was actuially a Jewish Company, before they had their bussiness taken away by the Nazi Socialist Party) that were then used against the Japanese. My grand father actuially had one, but didn’t know how faluble at the time.." (ALL TYPING MISTAKES ARE AMERO-FRANC’S, I JUST COPY/PASTE).

Your (unsolicited) post has NOTHING to do with what tcooper said. You are confusing things again, as usual. Read the following:

http://www.lpdallas.org/features/draheim/dr991216.htm

If you do not read it CAREFULLY, I will then be forced to copy/paste the ENTIRE article into this forum. Maybe then you will read things carefully and respond with thought and intellegence. So far, i have seen neither intellegence nor thought from you.

3) Do you know HOW to PROOFREAD? Your posts are filed with so many misspellings! It’s TERRIBLE! LEARN HOW TO SPELL OR PROOFREAD! If you don’t have the common courtesy to check your posts before posting them for grammar errors or spelling mistakes, then I won’t reply to you any more! An occassional misspelling is one thing, we ALL do that. However, ALL your posts are terribly worded and spelled. LEARN PROPER ENGLISH!

4) There is a difference between the words uneducated/ignorant and stupid.
A person who is ignorant/uneducated is somebody who needs to be educated. Somebody who can learn, and learn well, provided they’re given the resources and educational materials.
A stupid person is one who cannot seem to understand, cannot seem to learn, no matter what is done, said or provided to that person to help them.

From everything I’ve seen here, YOU sir, are STUPID.

Please excuse the double posting! My computer messed up and I didn’t see the double posting until it had already happened. My apologies for the computer error.

I will be sure to punish my computer appropriately…

Look,

Can you do anything else in response besides personal attacks? How I spell something is irrelevant to the logic of this and name-calling doesn’t prove anything. I’m sorry that it annoys you and I will try to slow down text time.

When someone has a bad habit the best thing to do is to give them a good one to replace it. So, instead of saying, "Sir, your stupid" you could do one of three things:

-1 Say, "sorry my mistake, you were right"

-2 Use a logic to show why he is wrong

-3 Don’t say anything

Instead of saying there is free speech I can say whatever I want, ask yourself why we have free speech. Then maybe you will understand.

Saying, "sir you’re stupid," is not really necessary. If I was stupid how is that going to convince me? Instead give me something to think about.

LaVieilleBranche,

That was actuially a very interesting post. Some of the connections I think were a strech, but some of it was very interesting.

I really never was a fan of the first Bush. He was too much a of 1 world gov. guy for me. I think if you look into Bush’s political career his policy is very different from his father. He was kind of the black sheep of the family, so I don’t think it has much relevance to the current Buch, but still very interesting.

If you’re into all that conspiracy theroy stuff, (which I’m not) the current Bush wasn’t a "Skull and Bones" like alot of the rest of the family.

By the way, I’m kind of suprised that you read The Dallas Libertarian Post.

Well, I’m off to France. The taxi to the airport arrives in 2 hours. Wish I could just go to France and stay for a few years but that’s not happening anytime soon, unfortunately.

I will reply to any/all posts I haven’t had time for AFTER I return.

La Vieille Branche

FORUM: I have just returned from a fabulous two weeks in LaFrance. It would be nice if all Americans could go to France (or most any place in Europe) and see how a good infrastructure can perform. Then maybe we wouldn’t be so enthralled with mundane issues such as Janet Jackson’s breast while we are squandering our national resources in order to "free the Iraqis." It is a sad commentary to me, an American, to see that a Brit (tcooper) can make so much sense. I truly believe that our foray into Iraq dovetailed with strategic oil considerations. Our government just does not want to tell us as we probably can’t handle the truth. Security in France was a lot more visable and effective than what we see here. Most of our security resources seems to be tied up in catching automobile speeders on roads that suck. Oh well, I have to slowly get back into to the land of big, underdesigned cars and trucks and a failing education and medical system. To say nothing of appaling restaurants and service. Meanwhile, we continue to amuse the world and embarrass ourselves. Donerail