Hello! I'm new to the board!

Don’t take the name calling on the debates as what every Frenchman or every American feels. There are some particularly vituperative posters here. Having spent a good deal of time in both countries, I think I can safely state that most Americans and most French get along just fine.

We have always been treated with kindness and respect in France.

Certainly don’t feel you must take sides. I just let the arguers argue and try to attend the more travel oriented threads.

At any rate, welcome to the forums. If we can offer any advice, please let us know. It’s always good to have a new poster.

Hello Noelle,

And, indeed, welcome to the forums!

Don’t be scared by the sometimes vituperous exchange. There is no denying that the Iraq war had spilled some bad blood between the US and France, but that does not mean in anyway that the 2 countries are at each other throat! It just means that some Americans are unhappy with the French position and vice versa…

SalB is right, you don’t need to take sides. This is a forum where people feel free to express their ideas. Sometimes they go too far, maybe.

Somehow internet forums on politics can veer off and get pretty nasty. But it also makes for more lively exchanges than if we all agreed:

Thank you for Lafayette…
No, thank YOU for D-Day,
No, thank YOU for the Statue of Liberty
No, please, thank YOU for saving our vineyards… etc…

OK. You get the point.

Oh, and thank YOU for joining the forums…

FC

NoelleAVP: Hi and welcome to the France.com forums

Although I’m one of those vituperative posters SalB is talking about, don’t let me scare you off. I LOVE France and I’m a damned Yankee, born in NJ

Have a kir royale and feel free to type away your opinions

. . . and we’ll all have a kir royale with you.

SalB: are you going to bring some good quality champagne to make the kir royale? maybe you could steal it from donerail’s cellar

NnoelleAVP: Let me join the others in welcoming you to the forums. My take so far has been that the French on here do not hate the USA or Americans. They do seem to have a problem with our President, however. Unfortunately, there has been considerable French bashing on the part of some Americans. Fortunately, it seems the French bashers don’t stay on for too long. You have to be on your toes, however, as the threads can get fairly intense. Witness the following:

SalB/LaVieilleBranche: Due to creditable threats to the security of both my wine collection and my attack cats and guard dog, the entire inventory has been moved to a much more secure location. The collection is now stored in Irak next to Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMDs). Now I feel very comfortable that you will not find my wine and the animals are not stressed out.
Donerail

donerail, You’re right. Now we’ll never find the wine. How sad . . .

SalB: don’t weep for donerail’s hidden wine. We can go to Iraq and take what’s left of Sadaam’s bottles. I heard he had a formidable collection of top quality French wine! We can split it, 50-50 and nothing for donerail and no new wine cellar for him, either

LaVieilleBranche: Be careful. You might bump into ikorrellim. Donerail

donerail: i doubt that i will run into her. People like her are all talk and no action. A big mouth, a big beer gut and nothing else
She’s probably hanging out in one of her many homes. I wonder if she hooked up with that Pakistani/Indian guy yet that she bragged about?
how pathetic….

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome Has anyone lived or visited Limosin? If so, what is that area like?? This is where my family is from back in 1800’s…

La Vieille- I saw your photo gallery link on another thread here! It’s just incredible! I especially liked the photos of the water with the alps in background. The panoramic photo was awesome. Hope I can get there in the near future. I’ve promised my boys we would vacation in France before they leave home. That would be our one cool adventure!

Donnerail I’m scared of you. Be nice until I get my foot in the door OK???

SalB and Francecom–thanks for making this a fun place to be. Yes the debates are informative and insightful, I’m not ready to be hooking up with anyone just yet! I’m just here to learn right now. In my little Catholic school we didn’t have an elective for French. I’m self taught with the help of audio tapes and books, etc. Are you all fluent in French and how did you accomplish that? I also read somewhere that it’s highly annoying to the French locals to hear their language mispronounced–so I definitely want to master the language.

In my family my grandmother was full german, and my grandfather was full french. He was drafted into WW2 and worked in France on the railroads. My grandmother lived with his family while he was gone for 3 years and she always said how awkward that was. They would speak French around her and very liberal, loud, argumentative. Obviously that would be a rough situation for her. I thought it was interesting to hear the firsthand history in these threads. Not just what we learn in school, but from people &/of relatives who actually lived it. That puts a whole different light on everything.

For the record.. Yes I am pro American of course. In all honesty though, it makes me sad to see firsthand the way the constitution is being twisted and turned upside down to accomodate the liberal agenda. The original "American Way" doesn’t seem to exist anymore and now it’s pretty much anything goes… I see our country rotting from the inside out, and that is the image we project to the rest of the world. Just my thoughts …

NoelleAVP: I had two years of French in my Catholic school so many years ago. I can’t speak the language but I have bought the books and tapes as well. I know just enough to make an attempt. No doubt I am butchering the language but the French really appreciate the attempt. After a while it becomes less intimidating and is even fun. I think I know what you mean by the "American Way." I see it changing a lot from when I was young. I don’t know if I would go so far as to say the Conservative Right Wing is causing our country to rot. It is causing it to change, though. I see a tear in Lady Liberty’s eye. The more I learn about France and the French, the more I see how we can improve. Being a mortgage banker, can you imagine what it would be like if we didn’t have the VA, FHA and SBA loan aid? Or the GI Bill. Say nothing about farm aid. Or Medicare. All fairly Liberal programs. Yes, a number of such programs were not as successful. Then again, where would we be without such Conservative programs such as Star Wars, the B1 and B2 Bombers, the V22 Osprey, and accelerated depreciation on oil well drilling. Oh yes, and our Thousand Points of Light. Again, welcome to the Forums. Donerail

Donerail I hear you & understand your point, those programs are essential and needed to maintain a normal standard of living. Not everyone has access to unlimited resources, and they have been the "bridge" to make things happen and stay in a strong position.

Im thinking about other countries looking at us and making judgements that don’t even apply to everyday American citizens. I consider myself to be a normal, hard working, straight, somewhat of a strong faith, good hearted person. As are the majority of every person I know. But we are perceived as porno, divorce, low morals, women are unruly and don’t know their place… If this is the way we are seen in the world, why doesn’t the government clean this image up? No we’re letting gay people be married, the priests are molesting the kids, the 10 commandments are removed from the courthouse, and you’re afraid of breathing in the wrong direction for fear you’ll trample on another person’s civil rights. Our government, society, whatever you want to call it has become rediculous in the last 30 yrs. I liked George Bush because he seemed like the last of a dying breed. Im sure that will send many of you off to the moon- but this is why I voted for him in 2000. I’m all ears right now, wanting to cast my vote for the right person in this election whoever it may be…

It’s just confusing to me in the world we live in now–why did 9/11 happen? Why would other countries hate us so much and terrorism is out of control now? Did we bring it on ourselves, did Clinton not do enough with the leads he had… And seriously, after 9/11 happened, what exactly was George Bush supposed to do? I probably do have a conservative pollyanna ideals, but my boys are 11 and 13 and if this doesn’t get resolved somehow in the upcoming future they will be the ones to take it on.

I’m up for a debate–what do you guys think, you’re not overseas either/this is your home too?? Thanks, Noelle

NoelleAVP, I try to stay out of the political arguments but I would like to attempt to answer one of your questions. You asked "Why would other countries hate us so much?"

I taught in Haiti for about 20 years and the US has "helped" that poor country to the point of absolute anarchy. We have totally destroyed their economy and their government and almost guaranteed there will be no improvement in the foreseeable future. This is one very small example of what the US has done.

If you studied the British Raj in school, you will have some idea of what we are doing worldwide. We are trying to impose our political system and our values on people who have political systems and values of their own. Our assumption is that we are rich and powerful so whatever we are doing has to be right. That works here, but it doesn’t work everywhere. There are places in the world where being rich and powerful are not necessarily good things, just like there are places where fat people are considered beautiful. It’s not right or wrong; it’s just different.

If we go into a country thinking the way we do, overthrow their government and then expect them to act like we do, we are going to anger large groups of people. When an already poor economy becomes worse due to our intervention, we anger them more. When we refuse to accept their leaders and their ideas, we anger them more. When angry young men have no jobs, no education and no hope, they are easy targets for those who espouse terrorism. It seens exciting and important to them and it gives them hope . . . the very hope that we just took away.

It can’t be laid on Clinton’s doorstep. It’s US government policy since 1945 (and probably much longer ago than that). We need to learn to let other governments govern themselves. We may not like what they do and we certainly need to monitor abuse (although we’re not going to be believed on that for a long time following the Iraq debacle), but we need to let them choose their own form of government, their own religion, their own economy, their own education. We need to be willing to admit there is more than one right way.

If we set an example of what can be done with freedom, they will come to it by their own decision some day, but we can’t MAKE them follow our beliefs. We might even learn something from them but not while we have our noses stuck in the air with superiority.

I think the worst thing that has happened in this administration are the lies. When you lie day after day, incident after incident, you lose all your credibility and that is where our government is today.
Foreign governments are afraid to deal with us. They don’t know if we will do what we say and they don’t know if they will be on the receiving end of an accusation tomorrow. If we can manufacture an enemy out of Saddam, we can manufacture an enemy out of anyone.

You don’t make friends by scaring people to death and governments aren’t much different from people. When they feel threatened, they become defensive and that’s where we are today. It will take a lot of work to bring our image back to where it was three short years ago and even then we had problems. When you think of the good feeling for the US around the world after 9/11 and you think of world opinion today, you wonder, how could it have gone so wrong so fast? If we had used the good feelings in a positive way, we could have done such great good but instead we are enmeshed in a very difficult military situation that is hurting everyone concerned, including the very people we were purportedly going to save.

Sorry, didn’t mean to run on this much but it’s a tender topic. I understand why they hate us. It bothers me that we don’t understand it collectively. It seems so obvious but most people only know what they see on the evening news if they even bother to watch that.

Sal B do not mean to offend, but it seems to me your argument
would have kept us out of WWII, at least the Europen part.
After all, Hitler rose to power through legitimate means, was well
liked by the masses and built up a thriving economy.
What gave us the right to destroy all that? After all, France and
England declared war FIRST, so wasn’t Germany just defending
its self by invading France and attacking England? Everybody
knows Germany always belived the best defense is a good offense.
Now I know Germany did declare war on U.S. first, but come on,
they were no threat to us. They could not even figure out a
way to get across the English Channell. Even at the end of WWII,
Germany had produced only TWO bombers bombers that could fly
ONE WAY to U.S. So I ask, for the sake of argument, why did
we invade and force democracy on Germany?
(Remember, the Holecost was largly unknown about in 1941, besides
even Roosevelt said he did not think the country would go to war
to save the Jews)

Maxpower, I’m not offended. I like to argue . . . as you may have noticed.

I was simply trying to answer NoelleAVP’s question, "Why would other countries hate us so much?" Having been in other countries who were supposedly helped by the US and had their economies decimated (in the generic sense of the word), I have some idea of why other countries do hate us. I think most Americans honestly have no idea. Their thinking is, "We’re the good guys. Why would anyone hate us?" I subscribe to the good guys theory to a point, but even the definition of a good guy is up for debate. What is good in one culture may not necessarily be good in another.

As far as WWII, it was pretty difficult for Roosevelt to get us in the war. People didn’t want to go to war for many different reasons and if we didn’t have Pearl Harbor, I’m not sure how Roosevelt would have gotten us into the war. That galvanized everyone, much like 9/11 did.

Hitler may have risen through legitimate means, but it was largely through voter apathy and voter fear of reprisal. I also said, "You don’t make friends by scaring people to death and governments aren’t much different from people." Germany wasn’t making any friends either at home or abroad. You have to consider intention too. Germany was obviously intent on ruling the world. They may not have been capable of attacking the US at that point in time, BUT if they obtained France, Russia and England, their joint economy would have grown to the point of easily being able to threaten us. An ounce of prevention . . . or . . . a good offense . . .

England and France had been begging for US assistance so we didn’t launch an invasion of their countries unbidden like we did in Iraq. We weren’t trying to unseat their government. We were trying to save their government. You also have to consider that western Europe is our own founding culture so we weren’t trying to impose a culture on them that was foreign. After the war, when we assisted all the European governments in rebuilding (including Germany), there wasn’t the culture clash we are having in the Middle East.

Different times; different circumstances, and as I said, I was simply trying to explain why it is that other countries can hate us because, obviously, some do. Some have good reason; some have bad reasons; some are being manipulated. Each circumstance is different. I do feel we need to be more culturally sensitive though and I don’t feel we can flaunt world opinion. It will come back to haunt us.

NoelleAVP: I can’t add much to what SalB has so eloquently stated. But in more "earthy" terms I need to add a comment or two. There are a lot of deranged savages out in the world with nothing to do – no jobs and no hope for a better living. I would either like to help those poor bastards or leave them alone. Israel (Sharon) and Bush want to taunt and goad them into action. I would prefer to leave those folks alone. Or, with the help of your kids sometime in the future, we will have to kill them all. Donerail

How is this ever going to end? What about this 3rd American beheaded today? Bin Laden and these terrorists were after us long before 9/11. What is Kerry going to do except pull all the troops out of Iraq and then this will continue right here in US. Honestly, I don’t even pretend to have answers and Im not so much into politics. It appears that we have bitten off way too much this time, and 1) what was the alternative and 2)there is no such thing as any peaceful resolution or reasoning with these savages. You can’t drop an atomic bomb on an entire continent and that is what it’s coming to. We can be absolutely sure that they have every intention of getting to us first. I’m scared for my boys because this is the world they’re preparing for..

NoelleAVP: You have summarized it well. Why did we go in there? Why can’t we pay a fair price for oil and get on with life. But no, Bush had to "liberate" the Iraqui’s. Give me a break. Now all the savages have a mission. You must feel so apprehensive about the future of your sons. I would. Donerail

NoelleAVP: You have summarized it well. Why did we go in there? Why can’t we pay a fair price for oil and get on with life. But no, Bush had to "liberate" the Iraqui’s. Give me a break. Now all the savages have a mission. You must feel so apprehensive about the future of your sons. I would. Donerail

Sal B In response to your last post, I agree U.S. did attack
Germany before it could threaten us. This then puts WWII in the
catagory of a pre-emptive strike. All wars afterwards have also
been a form of pre-emtive strike against communism. And not just
war, money poured into europe to prevent communist takeovers.
England, France, Germany and Greece all could have easily gone
communist without our money proping up fragile economies.
Whether or not this holds any lesson for today, I cannot say,
because, like you said, diffent times different circumstances.
One thing that is different is that the world will no longer
tolerate mass civilian casualties. Terrorists know this and use it to their advantage. The western world must figure out how to use it to
their advantage. All out war is not the answer to terrorism, but neither is doing nonthing.
Another difference is, like you said, cultural. The Mid-East is
not Western Europe. But this is where we might have an upper hand
in todays world. I think the second invasion of Iraq, the cultural
one, will be far more sucessful then the first. I know many of you
are weary of american culture, but it might be just the right thing
to win over young minds. Time will tell.

American culture is based on getting rich…the "American Dream" is all about money. Making money, letting the "market" decide everything. Big business rules and controls the country. Big business bribes politicians and has laws written in their favor so as to get richer.

Music and art in America are all but dead. Michael Jackson and Britney Spears are NOT cultural! They are people who use the marketplace to sell a sound product.

Must I elaborate on the state of American cuisine? McDonalds, Olive Garden, etc. are selling garbage and calling it food.

I wouldn’t wish this on ANY young mind, Arab or otherwise.

If you’re reading this thread and find it interesting, you might enjoy the book "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies" by Jared Diamond. It goes way back in history and discusses why wars are fought. Nothing much has changed since the stone age. It’s rather depressing, but the current situation makes more sense with the background.

Another interesting book is "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong" by James W. Loewen. He goes through things that have been presented to generations of students as facts. Only they simply are not true. He does document this. It’s fascinating.

We got a new Barnes and Noble bookstore and were exploring this afternoon. I’m sure they’re available at Borders or Amazon.com too.