Good luck America

That was one great post Manu just wrote. I subscribe to it in each and every word.

To my friends the American citizens : the whole world is watching you, so don’t screw up !!!

CRC

I fully agree with manu and crc: we, the rest of the world, are looking for you, american citizens, in this election day.
Make us forget those 4 last years…
Montjoly.

Happy Election Day! Because of terrorist threats to NJ Public Schools here, specifically the large, urban school districts, they had to close my school district down for today.

So I could sleep later this morning

I’m worried what 4 more years of a Bush administration will bring.

To paraphrase crc, time to vote the Chimp out today!

After, I will open a good bottle of wine FRENCH WINE

btw…MANU! GREAT POST! ))

Lav,
Sorry, but we like our Presidents to be Simple people, just like average Americans.

kfowler5: If you wanted a simple President, you sure as hell got one. Donerail

wierd from where I stand when I open windows I hear "51% of americans are morons!!!"… weird…

It’s probably due to some absorbtion or attenuation, major factors in sound propagation. Try this, poke a hole in your belly button. This will allow the sound to freely travel a straight line to your head.

dholland62: I tried poking a hole in my belly button. All that happened was a flashback to the Patriots giving the Steelers a big can of whoopass in the Playoffs at Pittsburg. It must be excruciating to see your team lose a Title game at home. Now for some entertainment for the Forum. I was at a Boston Bruin/Pittsburg Penguin hockey game in Pittsburg in the early seventies at a rink they called the Igloo (retractable roof that didn’t work). They had a tradition of walking a Penguin up to center ice on a leash prior to the start of the game and the National Anthem. A fan thru out a can or bottle (I can’t remember which) of Iron City beer and nailed the penguin square in the head. Didn’t kill the penguin and the fan that was escorted out of the Igloo was wearing a Pittsburg Steelers jacket. The Pittsburg fans had no reaction whatsoever. Yup, thats dholland62’s home town. (I have a lot more if needed.) Donerail

dholland62: Spell it however you want. It is still the pitts. hahahahahah. Donerail

Donerail : see, I think this is what forum_admin was talking about

CRC

CRC, you’re right and Donerail’s post was deleted.

ForumAdmin: If you have to exercise your censorship abilities, at least get it right. You didn’t censor anything from my posts but it appears you may have censored crc95. You might want to polish up those marketing skills as you will come to realize that a Forum is key to a commercial website’s success. The only thing you should be censoring are the hackers or those that would want to technically demolish the site. Donerail

Donerail,
Thats right we did get a simple man who believes in right from wrong, loyalty to wife and family, obeying the law, and who has morals and religious faith. And faith in the American people, and does not call us stupid because of the choice we make as a country. And if thatis what means to be simple you are right we have a simple man as President and we are DAMN proud of it.

Manu,
See that is what we American mean, just because we don’t agree with your viewpoints of the world we Americans are morons. Well lets see we Americans must be doing something right because after all we have the best economy in the world, we have the most powerful military in world. And most of Europe has 10% unemployment rate and the U.S. has 5.6%, if that is what it means to be a idiot I can live with that.

kfowler5: I don’t know where the "best economy" statement came from as the two best performing ones are Ireland and China. Standard of living is a better measure. We are number 12 in that regard. In infant mortality we are around 20th. In education we are around 12th and falling like a stone. Our unemployment rate may very well be 5.6%. Plenty of folks employed at WalMart and McD’s help out that number quite a bit. Our healthcare is not that much better than developing nations and cannot compare to Western Europe. And yes, we have the most powerful military. And the most costly. Our budget for the Pentagon is higher than the next 51 nations combined. Too bad we are the only nation in the world that insists on using its military – and for reasons that are later proven to false. Meanwhile, the terrorist savages are multiplying like flies. Donerail

donerail: I read in the NY Times last month, from the census data, the USA has slipped down to #28 in the list of industrialized nations for health care/infant mortality/quality of life. We used to be #25. EVERY other Western European nation is ahead of the USA on quality of life.
We’re the richest nation in the world, and we cannot even provide our citizens with health care and a minimum standard of living. It’s a disgrace.

donerail: How was your weeklong stay in beautiful France?
Did you run into SalB anywhere? or maybe crc came up from Lyon to drink some good cognac with you

kfowler5: You said you’ve the best economy, so how do you explain this rate: 1,29503 US$ for 1 Euro this morning?
Do you know what it means? It means that the world is trusting less in your money every day, when curiously the markets need more US$ to make their trade ( because of the high petrol rate…)
And now imagine that the OPEP countries decide tomorrow to want to be paid in Euros and no more in US dollar, what would happen? You’ll see your money ( and your power ) falling so quickly that you can’t imagine.

Do you understand now why is your president in Irak? To help the poor kurd children the bad Saddam was eating everyday as a breakfast or to defend his buying power?

Please, stop believing that a spirit of justice is animating your president and his team when it’s just a matter of money! There is no moral in it. Is it so hard to understand?

Montjoly.

K5:

He (your president) is simple alright, and if you are including the uneducated as average American, then he is just what you want. He used two words the other day that are not even in the dictionary. If that is what you are proud of in a President of the United States, then be proud, but don’t expect American’s who know better to buy your "just like average American’s" bit.

If you were proud of him in the debates, then you’ve got your man. I was embarrassed, thinking that all of the world was watching. I am also embarrassed that he was re-elected. I hope that the world as a whole remembers that 56 million American’s still have some sense.

Donerail,
China can’t help but have the best economy. Because socialists like you tax the corportions & small business to death. So the Corporations move their operations to china where they can pay a person a $1.00 an hour instead of the $15.00 an hour they would have to pay here.
And why doesn’t Europe spend any money on their military. Its simple, because they know that have the Good old U.S. there to protect them if they need it. I assure you if Europe spent a quarter of what we spent on our military they wouldn’t have the money they have to spend on their social programs. Get it straight they want the U.S. to be the world police force, the world just wants to tell the U.S. how to use it without paying for any of it. In plain english the world wants to have it both ways, well guess what they can’t.
If the rest of the world wants the U.S. to be the world police then they should shut-up and get out of our way. If the world want to tell the U.S. how to be the world police, then the world should folk up some dough or shut-up.

Mont.
Well now thats why it costs between $6.00 & $8.00 a gallon in Europe and it costs $2.00 a gallon here in the U.S. And if the Euro is so good why isn’t Britain using it?

Manu,
See now thats the kind of attitude thats gets Americans to vote for the Republicans.

Mont.
And as for Iraq, if I had my way I would just bomb Iraq back into the stone-age and just take the oil. But why isn’t Bush doing that, because he actually wants to help them.

kfowler5: Well I guess another day has gone by and no one down there has gut shot you yet. Hard to believe. Congratulations on making me safe. Keep up the good work. Now I have to open a bottle of nice French burgundy and salute La France. I will be checking the obits again tomorrow morning. Donerail

K5:
If Bush had his way he’d bomb them to hell to…which he has done a pretty good job of already. He is after world dominance…for the US. His bull-s— about freeing Algan and Iraq is just that, bull-s—…He wanted a foothold in the Middle East besides Isreal. Iraq was an easy target. Almost defenseless…However, Bush and his chickenhawks (because they listened to the wrong intelligence, namely Chalabi and his lying bunch of thieves, they told the administration that it was a cake walk and that we would be greeted with candy and roses…They did not count on "insurgents", "thugs", "murderers" as they call what most countries would call in their country "freedom fighters or resistance fighters"… Don’t let him kid you about his "freedom" speech for the Algans and the Iraqi’s…He wants continued dominance for the US. Unfortunately, as American’s always have in the past, we have to pay the price for that dominance and world rule in lives and money..

If it sounds like I am taking up for Bush…you’re wrong…he should never have gone into Iraq in the first place with his lies of WMD’s…Iraq was slowly crumbling to the ground with the sanctions…and Iraq was an easy target…just had to make up a bunch of lies to get American to support the war…

If the scandals and corruption hit this administration as many analyst agree it will in the next four years…don’t be surprised if Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld are indicted as criminals…genocide? does that sound familiar…war crimes…We don’t even have a formal declaration of war on this thing Bush coined "War on Terrorism"…

You are disgusting to agree with the Bush administration…Certainly you’re not part of the "moral majority"…and neither is Bush…he just has the Christian’s buffaloed…wait until Spector is confirmed…and see what judges are appointed to the Supreme Court…boy, the Jesus Right are gonna’ be fightin’ mad…

IKO,
I have news for you, Bush can’t be that stupid after all he has a law degree and business management degree from yale. And as for Bush not speaking the best, guess what that makes him appear more human and more like the average American. Believe it or not the average American is not perfect, and no one wants think that someone is talking down to them instead of to them.
And as for what the rest of the world thinks about the U.S., who cares. We elect a President of the United States not the world, and that is half the problem with the U.S. everyone is so worried about what the rest of the world thinks of us instead of about the things that really matter.

IKO,
If Bush really wanted the insurgants gone than we would bomb Iraq back into the stonage which we could do very easily.
And as for Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld being indicted as war criminals, wake up that will NEVER happen.
And as for their being no formal declaration of war against Iraq, wake up. Congress didn’t want to make a formal declaration of war because it would have given the President to much power, read the constitution and the emergency war powers act.
And as for Spector, he’s done. I can pronise you he will not get the chairmanship of the Senate Judicary Committie, Spector shoulh have kept his big mouth shut.
And as for calling me and my fellow 60 million voters who voted for Bush discusting its remmarks like that, that make people want to vote republican instead of democrat.

kfouler5: Do you write up tickets with the same proficiency of prose that you exhibit here on the forums? Has a judge ever said: "Christ, this ticket looks like it was written by an idiot." ?? Donerail

kfouler5: You have convinced me. Can I be a Republican just like you?? If I can be like you, can I wear a white robe and cone hat too? I say we go out an do sumpthin bout those bortion clinics and those librals. And those queers. And those commie luvin non-mericans spongin off us honest taxpayers. And those tree huggin pussies who can’t handle a little smog. And those peeple who wonna say we come frum a ape. And those non God fearing sinnahs who wanna take our guns an suvs away. Donerail

K5:

There was a "cartoon" floating around on the web on Nov 3th. It was titled: "Republican Meeting"…when the download was opened, it showed a meeting of the KKK. I am assuming that you missed that last meeting because you were very busy buying up all the pharmautical stock that you could afford…See if you can figure that one out…

If you are a policeman as you claim…then you should have been with your fellow police officers who were trying to get your Republican administration to extend the assault weapons ban. It states in the Al-Quida manual to "buy an assault weapon from gun dealer…no problem"…I have noticed that since the assault weapon ban was not extended by the "pussy" Republicans who are afraid of the NRA, I have heard of several robberies and shoot-outs with policeman, with the gunmen using automatic assault weapons…You are a disgrace to your profession, if you really are a policeman, and I can see you being locked up soon for "excessive physical abuse" to a perpretrator of a crime…maybe another Rodney King…

I have a brother who was the Executive Officer of the Marine Corps Security Department…and he certainly doesn’t think like you…He has friends he went to high school and college working here where we live that are police officers and they don’t have your rotten attitude. I even know policeman who live and work in Baltimore, Maryland (crime capital of the US…or was some years back) who don’t have your attitude. I wonder what your performance appraisals say…certainly you cannot be four 0’s across the board…you must be marginal or minimal performance at best…that’s as low as you can go and still hold onto your job…

K5:

Ignorance showing again…Bush has a Business Degree from Yale…Wow…I’m impressed…No law degree…

He has his Bulls— Degree and his Party Hardy Degree and just squeezed through with a low average C for the Business Degree, which as most intelligent Americans are aware…it ain’t that hard to get a BA…

As far as his religion goes…he got religion in 1976 when he got a DUI and his wife told him, "his own words", "it’s Jim Beam or me"…so,he took the high morale ground and found religion to help keep him off the booze. However, after seeing and hearing him in the first debate…I think he might have become a "closet drinker"…

I feel that one day in the next four years, we will see him acting rip, roaring drunk…Now that will be a great day for America…

K5:

Best economy…get your head out of your a–…Dollar is down today against Euro…

You party whom you are so proud of just upped our debt limit again yesterday…We will be lucky if we don’t fall into a depression and all be standing in soup lines again…

Donerail: I saw our man Kerry last night on CSPAN 2 with his first address to the Senate since they have come back…Very nice talk…of course he voted No to the increase in the debt limit…

I would imagine that all of the Republican slime in DC and around are putting their money in tin cans and hiding it in the ground…for future, "hard times"…

Donerail,
actually, the judge said these tickets look like they were written by a doctor.

IKO,
I refuse to by just one stock, to risky. I invest in the Willshire 5000, which is every stock on the NY stock exchange. It is impossible to lose money that way.
What, extent the assult weapons ban. First of all criminals don’t get their guns from gun shows they get them from illegal means, like the black market.
I am a member of the NRA and I own assult weapon. And it is legal for me because I am ex-military and a police officer. If you liberals had your way no one in the U.S. would be able to buy a firearm of any type.
As for me being locked for excessive force please, I have never hit a perp in my life. I just make their lives hell using the law, it’s wonderful when you can them paranoid.
Actually, the performance ratings go from 1 to 5. I have gotten all 4’s for the past 5 years. People here are willing to take a little **** to keep the slime off the streets and out of their towns.
Sorry, but that is there not here in New England. If fact the elected officals and citizens promote that attitute here, we take no **** from no one.

IKO,
Wrong again, I looked it up. G.W. has a law and Business Degree from Yale just like his father.
Please you show me one college student that didn’t party. And as for a BA, got news for you a Masters is only one year longer. And judging by the quality of the school teachers in the public school system which by the way are required to have master degrees, appently its not that hard to get a masters degree either.
Good that shows that G.W. really loves his wife, unlike your buddy Ted Kennedy, who misteriously made a young woman disappear and show up on a beach somewhere, and unlike your Buddy Jack K. who decided to have good old Maralyn Monroe commit suicide.
As for his performance at the first debate everyone makes mistakes and has a temper, he just makes him look more human instead of a robot.
Better to see G.W. get drunk instead of Getting a **** job in the oval office on our time.

ikorrellim: When kfouler5 goes on the dole, which is inevitable, he still will not repent and we will be supporting him and his brother. I can’t imagine anyone ever hiring him, unless its the KKK. But we are charitable and we will do the right thing. Can you imagine how many half wits there are out there just like him?? Gawd, its scary. And they will be investing in their future by "sure thing" Wilshire 5000 investments. Gawd help us all. Donerail

Bush’s "degrees" mean nothing. The only reason he got into Yale is because of legacy acceptance. Your father went to Yale, so your son is automatically accepted, provided there’s a sizable donation to the institution in advance. If Bush had to get into Yale on his merits, he’d of been rejected immediately.
Bush talks like a redneck Texan. I have friends in Texas and they do NOT talk as Bush does. They are teachers, and one friend is a network administrator, with his own computer company. Bush is stupid, in plain and simple words. STUPID.
As for Mrs. Bush, she reminds me of a "stepford wife", only shorter, plainer and fatter. That’s the best Bush can do, I guess. However, Mrs. Kerry rocks! She is smart, well educated, cultured and she doesn’t take crap from others. A strong woman and a strong role model for today’s young girls.

donerail: when kfouler goes on welfare, he has a maximum benefit of 5 years lifetime. I guess he’ll have to move to Puerto Rico and sponge off his in-laws. I wonder if he’ll take his KKK robe and cone hat with him?

IKO,
No get your head out of your A**. Who cares about the Euro, that’s why every country in the world watches to see how our stock market does before investing in the Europian or Asian stock markets. Soup lines my A**, you think we are still on the gold standard or something.
And as for the debt. limit get over it, it is $8,000,000,000 dollars. It will NEVER be paid off.
And the only way a depression could ever happen again is if every person in America sold every share stock they own. And I assure the feds made sure that can never happen.
No, the republicans are going raise taxes on all 55 million liberals in America.

Donerail,
unlike you I am not a welfare receiptant. And as for the Willshire 5000, which is an index fund.

Lav,
Wrong, Bush’s degrees don’t mean nothing. And as for getting into yale on merits. Merits only apply to people who don’t have money, otherwise if you can pay you can go.
So your friends are probably from the city. Just like a liberal bigot, just because someone doesn’t think like you or talk like you they are stupid.
As for Mrs. Kerry who never worked a day in her life, when Mrs. Bush was a school teacher. Lets see, even the top Democrats said that Mrs. Kerry’s BIG MOUTH cost Kerry some votes. There is a time and place to say the things Mrs. Kerry said, but on the campaign trail is not one of those places.
Lets see, from what I remember the first time Bill got elected Hillary started to shoot her BIG MOUTH off about policy. And what do you know alot of the American people didn’t like the fact Hillary was shooting off her BIG MOUTH, and a short time after that you started to a more relaxed softer Hillary. Wonder why?
What, move to Puerto Rico. No way, if you live in Puerto Rico you can’t vote because they don’t pay income taxes.

To all:

Same thing I thought, Laura Bushie is a stepford wife.

I have relatives in the Dallas-Fort Worth area…exurbs…and they don’t talk like Bush either…He is a redneck…or pretends to be…

I would hope that America will wake up and see that this country needs an intelligent, well-rounded person to lead our country. Bush had never been out of the country, I do believe, until he became President…I see he is catching hell in Chile right now…and rightly so…I suppose he’ll stay low except for the places he needs and has to go, (oversees)…

The unfortunate part about this whole election is that World Opinion was giving us Americans a break because they knew that Bush had been selected not elected, now they just see us as "just like Bush and his chickenhawks.

K5: Theresa Heinz Kerry worked as an interpretor for the UN…Then she met her first husband John Heinz, then she became a wife and mother. When her husband died, she took over his vast holdings and has become a champion for good causes, environment, etc. I think you would be much better received to move to the country where your wife is from…is it Mexico or Puerto Rico?

For K5, who probably doesn’t know what a chickenhawk is, it is a person who has never been in the military, nor served in combat, but is ready and willing to start wars and send other peoples children to die for them…

I think they need to change the rules in Congress…Any administration that thinks that a war is "just", they should back up their beliefs by first sending their own children…

ikorrelim: yes, I know..Laura "Stepford wife" Bush…what a creepy thought! A first lady with NO backbone, no guts and strength of character to stand up in what she believes in, independant from her husband. What a terrible role model for young girls in the USA today.

Hillary Clinton rocks! I used to dislike her intently, but seeing how she gets things done for her state of New York, how she isn’t afraid to speak up LOUD for things she believes in, I think she is a strong and wonderful role model for American women. You too, can be senator!
Same with Mrs. Kerry! Anybody who can live under a repressive regime as a child, come to America, make good here all the while staying strong and forceful deserves the best. Besides, speaking at least 5 languages shows intellegence and cultural awareness, something Mrs. Stepford wife cannot do, unless you count speaking "redneck" as a second language…..

Bush NEVER left the USA until he was president. He never visited Canada or other neighbors. Then he suddenly becomes president and trys to tel the entire world what to do. And Americans wonder why the rest of the world despises Bush.

The same Americans who voted Bush are the ones who NEVER left the USA for a vacation. They’ve never travelled abroad to Europe, never been to Canada. If they went to Mexico, it was on a day trip to buy cheap Mexican silver or leathers. These people know NOTHING about the world, yet they try to tell the entire world how to live. If i were a Canadian or European, I’d tell the USA to get lost, too.

Hi LaVielle,

Remember me? ;o) I thought you were going to move to once Bush got elected, too bad you’re still in country.

Anyway, I’ve been to Japan for 2 years, visited Korea, 2 years in England, visited Scotland, and every other month flew down to Crete from England as part of my job. I voted for Bush and I’m well traveled and I know conversational Greek, Spanish, some Japanes as well as some Russian that I learned from my friends who where linquists. Certainly I don’t fit into your little ‘black and white’ picture of Bush voters.

Well, too bad for the Democratic loss and congratulations to George Bush!

kermit: Yes i remember you….

Nope, I’m not moving out. I’m staying right here. I’m well paid, have health insurance and pension plan. I need to stay right here and vote the Chimp’s successor out of office in 4 years!!

Good luck to you LaVielle,

You may get your candidate next time around!

IKO,
So Laura Bush is a Stepford Wife. I don’t think so after all she was a public school teacher, and from what I remember you have to be a liberal and a member of the NEA to be a public school teacher. You liberals just don’t like the fact that Mrs. Bush backs up her husband like she is supposed to and the fact that Mrs. Bush knows when to talk and when not to talk so she doesn’t make her husband look bad.
Of course G.W. is a redneck, but he still won 2 terms as Governor of Texas by landslides. But what do you expect, when the first time around G.W. was running against an Incumbant Governor who is a DRUNK and everyone knew it.
And who cares what the rest of the world thinks G.W. is supposed to be President of the United States, not the World.
Oh Teresa Heinz worked for the U.N., that says alot for her. She worked for a corrupt peace organization who took bribes from Saddam, I’m real impressed.
Oh Teresa Heinz is a Champain of the envirnment, thats why she has a private jet and numerous luxury cars.
From what I recall, G.W. was in the military.
Oh and it’s to bad about your buddy Dan Rather, what a idiot. Next time maybe Dan Rather will do a better job of manufacturing Documents, so he won’t make CBS look like a bunch of fools.
Sorry you losers, but Congress voted to authorize war.

Lav,
Ok Bush tells the rest of the world what to do, right. But its ok for the rest of the world to tell the U.S. what to do, you are all hypocrits.
Sorry you loser, but I did leave the U.S. and went to numerous countries. But I refuse to return to those countries because the want U.S. citizens to visit their countries and spend money, but they don’t want to speak English. Sorry if you losers in Canada & Europe want U.S. tourist dollars, you speak English or we U.S. citizens will just stay in the U.S.
The world want it both ways. They want to tell the U.S. what to do, but at the same time they want U.S. citizens to spend our money in their countries. Well I have news for all you Europians, you can’t have it both ways.

kfouler5: Isn’t it time for you to get back to the Double-Wide. Donerail

kfouler: Bush IS a loser and stupid redneck, just like a certain "policeman" who posts in these forums….

It’s good that you DON’T go to Europe! You stay home! Every time I go visit europe I see some stupid American doing some STUPID thing(s), and Europeans invariably ask me why Americans behave like that. They assume ALL Americans are boorish, rude, loud, insulting, racist, greedy, FAT and arrogant because those are the behaviors Americans exhibit when they travel overseas.

So you stay home in your Waco style compound up there in CT. One less American to embarass us all when we travel overseas.

Donerail,
Isn’t time for you to return to STARBUCKS to talk liberalism with your ELITIST friends, & where you pay $5.00 for a cup of coffee.

Lav,
Well you stay in France where the food is bland & sucks. And where the women don’t shave their underarms or take showers. And where the workers take twelve coffee breaks every day. And as for Americans being rute, loud, insulting, & greedy we Americans don’t care what the French think. But the French want our Tourist Dollars don’t they, bunch of hypocrits.

Kfooler : I warned you before how using stupid prejudices added a lot of value to your posts. Well now congratulations, you officially made it clear to us that you are a worthless IDIOT … lol

As for the tourists money, I was in Paris downtown yesterday (and I’m supposed to go back this afternoon … need anything ?) and was amazed by the number of American tourists I saw. In some places, it was like one couple out of 3 ! I know Paris is traditionally swarming with US tourists during the TKG week, but with a euro at $ 1.32 I would have thought they’d stay home. But no, they are still attracted by the bland food and the unshaved armpits

CRC

crc: don’t forget the wonderful wine, the delicious, NO hormone, NO steroid meats! the aromatic coffee, the vin chaud aux epices, baguettes and croissants, the little brasseries on every corner that serve up a delicious meal at a reasonable price, the creme brulee, the wonderful Fragonard perfumes, the beautiful, well made, stylish clothes and too many other wonderful things to mention here

I need to retire to France in 20 years

crc: since you are in Paris, can you go to the rue Mouffetard markets and get for me a good conte cheese, a good brie, a baguette, some croissants, some fruit tartes, and a good chicken from Bresse?

After that, you need to go to rue Scribe to the Fragonard boutique and pick up some Grain de Soleil perfume/perfumed soap

(you DID ask if we needed anything!)

crc95/LVB: Besides the outstanding food and wine, LaFrance also has a superior road system with logical signage, superior inter and intracity transportation systems, an unending array of restaurants where you get unparalled service, appliances and products that work, a superior phone system, a riveting history and culture, markets that are a joy to visit, and – of course – health care and a lower crime rate. kfouler5 would prefer to hunt rats in his pot-holed, rusty, rat infested, polluted, uneducated, crime ridden plantation located in the eyesore called Connecticut. Then again, that mirrors his intelligence. Its too bad he will never be able to afford an enlightening trip to LaFrance. And that is probably just as well. Donerail

Donerail : thanks for the compliment, except that honestly I’d have to disagree with you on the ‘logical signage’ and the ‘lower crime rate’.

And no, this one corsican ceremony is not a klan meeting, although they love hoods there too. Black hoods rather. Come to think of it, maybe the klan stole the idea from them. There’s a town in TX named Corsicana, after its founder’s grandparents’ origins. Maybe it comes from there !

LVB : just got back from Paris. Took my little cousins to the Arc de Triomphe (to my opinion, the most interesting view of Paris). I cannot believe we were the only French up there ! lol … Kfooler’s gonna love this.

Sorry, I didn’t go to rue Mouffetard to buy you all that food. Since you’re not lyonnaise you never could notice this, but food generally just plain SUCKS in Paris.

Fragonard ! I’m glad you mention that. Have you ever asked a French about Fragonard ? None knows it here. lol … Fragonard is a 100 % American tourists thing, and there’s a reason for that. Fragonard was smart enough to be the first one to open its Grasse factory to visits, and thus started getting all those tourists visiting the French Riviera and the Nice area. Of course, they have a nice gift shop in the factory. Their success booming, they had to open a shop in Paris too, where you’ll hardly meet any French speaking customers. I think I have an average knowledge of French perfumes, but I would have never heard of Fragonard weren’t it through my US friends.

CRC

CRC,
I’m a worthless idiot. Thats why my Presidental candidate won and yours lost. And who gives a **** about the Euro, everyone knows the world economy depends on the U.S. economy. So if I were you, I would get your head out of your ***.

Donerail,
Ever read the book Milton? Remember this quote "I would rather rule in Hell than serve in Heaven".

kfouler5: You are not ruling anywhere. You are just too dumb. Last I checked, Milton was an author – not a book. You are numb as a hake. I think even your friends the skinheads and neo-nazis would find you to be a joke. It must really suck to be you. Donerail

Donerail : don’t be mean to the hakes. They have nothing to do with this.

CRC

crc95: I apoligize. That was unfair to the hakes. Donerail

Donerail,
Wrong. I run my life as I see fit. Oh, so now you want to call me a bigot. I know more about life and the world than you will ever know. Grow up, how many U.S. civilians have to die at the hands of these radical Middle Eastern <snip>.

Donerail : this can’t go unpunished !

CRC

crc95: You are correct. kfouler5 needs to be taken to the woodshed. The invective that kfouler5 hurled my way has me totally upset. I don’t know what I ever said about him would set him off that way. He is being just too cruel towards me. Just because I said his brother was an only child. Not only that, but now I have millions of hakes from all over the North Atlantic wanting to find my address. kfouler5 is just a neo-nazi mental dwarf – but those hakes could be a problem. What do you suggest?? Donerail

K5:

When you can become pregnant, then you will have a right to decide if women should or should not have children. It is interesting that the population that is up in arms about Roe v Wade all seem to be white caucasian males. You are a bigot and a hiprocrite. I wonder what your IQ is? I can just see you now, old dirty jeans, ugly worn work boots, a hunting jacket on that is in need of repair, scraggly dirty hair, probably a beard and mustache too. Typical…red neck, narrow-minded, tunnel vision, ignorant of facts, so mule-headed that you cut off your nose to spite your face.

However, I do find your post humorous. Please continue.

You are still losing your time with k5? Ok, I’ll come back next week, maybe you’ll have given up as I did.

Montjoly.

Donerail,
Here’s an idea what you said. Lets see, you called a NEO-NAZI. Do you know what a NEO-NAZI is? I will tell you what a NEO-NAZI is, they are people trying to revive the NAZI ways of life. Which means only W.A.S.P. people have the right to walk this earth. I have news for you, I am proud that I’m married to a Hyspanic woman. I also have alot of African-American friends. And I assure you that I would never wipe out an entire religious people.
If you call someone a bigot, you better be able to back up your accusations with facts. Your attitude is exactly the reason the Democrats lost the election.

IKO,
I have every right to decide if women have children or not when my tax dollars are either paying for their abortions, or paying for the mothers to have the children and paying for the childs medical care and paying for a place to live for the mother and child.
As I told your friend Donerail, if you are going to call someone a bigot you better be able to back it up with facts. And it’s that attitude you have right now that cost the Democrat’s the election. Until you Dems wake up and start promoting a more positive message instead of attacking everyone who disagrees with you, you will continue to loose elections.

Hey Kfool,

I heard you hero / good buddy the Chimp in Chief will expand the number of troops in Iraq.

When are you leaving ? We’ll miss you.

CRC

To tell the truth that would of happend no matter who want.Both kerry and bush would of done the same thing.It was need.not that its right but i want suprized at all.Even if kerry was presedent right now it still would of happend.Just my two cents

oddone:

Your two cents are right. Kerry would have done the same thing as Bush, now…because we have to get out of Iraq with as much grace and dignity as we can muster…But, if Kerry or if John McCain (now he would have made a good president) had been president, the Iraq Invasion would never have happened. They have both felt the sting of battle and would have exhausted all avenues before sending other peoples children to die and get maimed for life. Unfortunately, this administration is made of of all chickhawks…except Rumsfeld, who was in the Navy during WWII. They never served, but they sure don’t mind sending other peoples children. Term…Hawks…(for war), chicken (self explanatory)…

Keep coming back…you make a lot of good two cents…

CRC,
Well at least President Bush is willing to make the HARD choices and do WHATEVER HAS TO BE DONE. Unlike Kerry who had no idea what he was going to do about Iraq except turn it over to the U.N. or withdraw the U.S. troops all together. Which would have done a whole lot of good, because after the U.S. troops left Iraq would definately end up in worse shape then it was when the U.S. was there.
And your remarks just prove to me you know nothing, because if you actually listened to the news you would have known that the U.S. is not actually sending more troops to Iraq. The U.S. is delaying the return back to the states of 10,000 troops that were supposed to return home before the Iraq elections.
Also I was in the Air Force in a B-52 Bomber, I assure you that if I was called back into service it would be because the U.S. planned to level the entire county of Iraq. And since G.W. doesn’t want to do that, I won’t be going anywhere. And besides the fact I have been out of the service for 10 years, sorry they can’t call my up.

crc95: Don’t hold your breath waiting for kfouler5 to go to Iraq. As well as being an neo-nazi, right wing bigot, he is also a pussy. I do wish he would have the courage of his convictions and go to Iraq to help them be free. He’d be fragged within 24 hours. Donerail

IKO,
What are you talking about. Even now John McCain says invading Iraq was the right thing to do, so before you go spewing words make sure what you are saying is right. McCain did feel the sting of battle after being in a Nam prision camp for 6 years. But Kerry was only in Nam for 4 months. You can’t compare them, McCain is a war hero Kerry is a wanna-be. Rumsfeld is a hawk, I think you talking about Powell. Thats why you elect a President, to make the tough choices. And the one job of the President that is spelled out in the U.S. Constitution is to protect the U.S. by any means necessary, which does not include giving free health care to a bunch of illegal aliens.
Well IKO, when you are willing get off you but and enlist then you will have the right to say weather our troops should be where they are. Remember the U.S. is NOT a Democracy the U.S. is a Representitive Republic, your party had their chance to say the Iraq war was wrong and you lost.

Donerail,
Listen here, I served my country in the first Gulf War and as you can see I wasn’t fragged. If anything you are the coward, before you talk about me maybe you should go enlist. But wait thats right, you’re a coward. I do have the courage of my convictions but I am 8 years out of service, I’m not even in reserves anymore.

Kfool : I really enjoy reading from you. Like when you write stuff like "the US is not a democracy" or "I’d like to level Iraq". Nice. Tell me, why do you hate Saddam again ?

And by the way, I think you should stop mentioning Kerry all the time. We know he lost, and we know we’re sad about it, but it’s over now. Let’s all look forward. The question now is how deep can Chimp in Chief take the US down the gutter during the next four years. Interesting question, isn’t it ?

CRC

K5:

You are without a doubt the most ignorant SOB to ever post here. Rumsfeld WAS in the Navy. He WAS the only one of Bush’s immediate cabinet (besides Powell) who was in the service. The rest got deferments when we had the draft…As Cheney said, "He had other priorities"…He got five deferments, then got his wife pregnant…with Mary, the lesbian…for his sixth deferment. Ashcroft got five deferments, then got married…and the list goes on. Bush’s father got him into the "Champagne Unit" where no one ever expected anything out of him. He partied a lot…

And I was enlisted…during the Vietnam Era. And don’t say you can’t be called up…A LtCol that I know, retired for 15 years has just been called back up…Six months re-training, then to Iraq…

I hope they do call you up…justice would be served, however, I am sure they are only calling up the very best, so that leaves you out. Perhaps you would learn something…You certainly didn’t learn anything on the B52’s…what did you do…loadmaster?

K5:

To enlighten you, John McCain was a POW for seven years. His father was the Admiral of the whole Sixth Fleet. The Vietnamese found out who John McCain was and offered a trade…McCain, Jr. sent the word back to his father, "No give, Daddy"…

John Kerry was on a Frigrate for one year on the shores of Vietnam. He volunteered for Swift Boat Duty and was sent stateside to train, then he went to Viet Nam…Yes, he was there four months…wounded three times…that punched his ticket to get a stateside assignment.

GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT…if you want to sprew your garbage…Garbage is nice to hear, if it is factual…

ikorrellim/crc95: It appears kfouler5 cannot accept the reality that he is an ignorant bigot and facist. However, he does appear to accept the reality that he is pussy. A pretty studpid one, at that. Donerail

CRC,
Well it is true, the U.S. is not a Democracyit is a Republic. Or don’t you remember the PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE.

I Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands: one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

IKO,
If you read my post, you would have saw that Rumsfeld was a hawk. And I never said Rumsfeld wasn’t in the Navy. Lets see there was a story recently on Chris Mathews about a Army Captain who had completed his 8 year commitment to the Army. 4 years active, 4 years in the Reserves. The army called this Captain up and said he was going to Iraq. Guess what that Army Captain took the Army to court and told the court he had completed his 8 year commitment. And guess what the EX-ARMY Captain won, he doesn’t have to go to Iraq and he gets an Honorable discharge.
The only servicemen the military can call are the ones in the READY RESERVE. And since I am not in the READY RESERVE, I’m not going anywhere. However if I did go, I would be brought back in as a bombardier in a B-52 Bomber. Which means Carpet bombing most of Iraq from about 15,000 ft.

IKO,
I was a bombardier. I learned when you fight a war, you fight to win. Which means you have to be willing to do whatever it takes to win.

IKO,
Lesten here you idiot, Kerry was only the Navy for 4 months. How do I know this simple, it’s called THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT. You should try it sometime, its called research.
I never said McCain wasn’t a hero you PINHEAD, learn how to read. I said McCain is a true hero. If anything you are the spewing Garbage, why don’t you make a run for it to the Canadian boarder like the rest of your liberal pinhead friends are.

Well we are a Republic.Look up the word and it will describe how our country works.BUT! we are all so a demacrasy.you see we may be ruled by a republic,wich is made up by bouth rebupicans and demorcats we are a democracy.We vote and elect our leaders.We vote our laws, there for we are a democracy but the type of goverment we have is a republic.(not a repubilcan theres a difference)look it up in the dictionary and it will flat out tell you it too.I hope i was clear.some times i make no sence lol.

K5:

I love the way you contradict yourself from post to post. You are very amusing…Your ignorance is astounding…Please continue to entertain us. I don’t take anything you say seriously, but you do elicit a chuckle every now and then…

Kfooler : I know a dumbass good ole’ neck like you can’t know anything about political science, so here are a few clues for you :

democracy = demos kratein = ancient greek for "rule through the people"

republic = res publicae = roman for "public matters", i.e. government.

I hope you have enough brain cells left in your skull (after that cheap budweiser attack you inflicted on them) to figure all this out by yourself.

CRC

ODDONE,
Listen here you ignorant fool. I looked them both up. A Democracy is a type of government where the PEOPLE vote on the laws and policies directly. A Republic is a type of government where the PEOPLE elect REPRESENTITIVES to make laws and policies in the best interest of the country and people.
Try reading for once, that way you won’t make yourself look like such a BAFOONE.
Wrong, we vote for the people we want reprent us. The reprentitives we elect vote for the laws.
I did look it up you pinhead, you’re just making yourself look more stupid.

IKO,
I never contradict myself.

CRC,
Sorry but you are wrong. I looked them both up. A Democracy is a government where the people vote on the laws and polies directly. A Republic is a government where the people elect reprentitives to vote on laws and polies on our behalf.
Try reading, it might do you some good.

kfouler5: You couldn’t find your ass with both hands. Donerail

Kfooler : I CANNOT believe they would give a stubborn idiot like you a gun and a badge and let him loose on the street. Oh my, talk about some public danger.

CRC

and what are ‘reprentitives’ and ‘polies’ by the way ? WTF ?? You advise me to read, perhaps you should try reading AND spelling too.

And did you read my very explanatory post to you at all ??

democracy = demos kratein = ancient greek for "rule through the people"
republic = res publicae = roman for "public matters", i.e. government
democracy = demos kratein = ancient greek for "rule through the people"
republic = res publicae = roman for "public matters", i.e. government
democracy = demos kratein = ancient greek for "rule through the people"
republic = res publicae = roman for "public matters", i.e. government
democracy = demos kratein = ancient greek for "rule through the people"
republic = res publicae = roman for "public matters", i.e. government
democracy = demos kratein = ancient greek for "rule through the people"
republic = res publicae = roman for "public matters", i.e. government
democracy = demos kratein = ancient greek for "rule through the people"
republic = res publicae = roman for "public matters", i.e. government

Is it getting through yet ??

CRC

Ah, I love intelligent, reasoned discourse.

ya i was proven worng.I know when im worng and ill addmit it.But you make your self look dumb kfowler5 by insulting people who never said any thing worng to you.It makes me laugh beacuse I’m not scared to addmit when im worng but you hide behind insults.What a shame.Its mostlikely the only way you can feel good about your self by insuleting people.makes me laugh to know theres still dumbass who can’t hold a friendly chat a bout this matter.

oddone: I sympathize with you. kfouler5 also said terrible things about me as well. I cannot understand why. Donerail

SalB: Can you please do something. This place is out of control.

crc95: I thought you would tell everyone that flies Air France to carefully unpack their luggage. Donerail

yeah … where is SalB when you need her ??

CRC

CRC,
Thats just to bad for you. My right to carry a firearm is in the U.S. Constitution. And besides, those of us citizens who obey the laws of the U.S. and State we reside in have every right to carry a firearm.

CRC,
Get it through your head. I looked it up in the Dicationary. A Democracy is a form of government where the people vote laws and policies directly by having a referendum. A Republic is a form of government where the people elect Representitives to vote on laws and policies for the country and the people.
You can take your greek & roman bull somewhere else, the only definitions that apply about Democracy and Republic and the ones in the Dictionary.

Is it getting through your stupid skull yet?

Donerail,
You can’t understand why I said terrible things about you, you really must be dumb. Here’s a clue, anyone who doesn’t agree with your views you call Racist, Neo-Nazi, & Bigot.

Kfool : I must apologize to you. I have just realized that our misunderstanding came from the fact that I am used to looking words up in a dictionary, whereas you look them up in a Dicationary ! Imagine my confusion.

Anyway, in my dictionary, as in any dictionary, a democracy is a political regime where people are granted the right to make and vote the laws, either directly by themselves, which is very rare, or through other people that they elect to do so.

In my book, other regimes than democracy are : anarchy (no power at all), theocracy (religious power), oligarchy (power to the happy few), plutocracy (power to the rich), monarchy (power to a sole individual), or just plain good ole’ dictatorship.

Now which one of these above will you choose ?

CRC

CRC,
Well, what does the Dictionary say about a Republic. I will tell you what the Dictionary says. The Dictionary says a Republic is a form of Government in which the People elect Representitives to make laws and policies for us. Look it up you will find out I am right, unless you are to chicken too.

crc95: Whatever you do, please don’t think of kfouler5 as a typical Americans. Just when I thought he couldn’t embarrass himself any further – you draw him to new heights. You play him like a violin – and so easily. There must be a French law against that. Donerail

Donerail : well we do have laws against dicrimination for handicapped , mentally insane, or retarded people. But, I don’t think they apply in a website that goes by PST. See js previous reasoning about how different laws can be applied to different places.

CRC

Donerail,
I see you and CRC think alike, but what do you expect when you both share the same brain.

*YAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWN*

The endless fighting and bickering is getting boring. Amusing, but boring.

Kfooler : how did you know it was you ???

CRC

LVB: How dare you be bored!! Your’s truly and crc95 are giving you the best entertainment on the net. Just look how kfouler5 is making everybody laugh. Donerail

I think K5 is getting boring…It must be time for him to leave Ruby Ridge and go stock up on cases of Bud…

ikorrellim: He was stunning at investment advice. Donerail

Just had to reply to this.
First, I like guns. They keep criminals from coming into my house, stealing my possesions that I have worked hard for, and just leaving without suffering something for their actions. God knows the criminal justice system won’t make them suffer.
Enough on that. I just wanted to point out that Abraham Lincoln was a republican. Andrew Jackson was a democrat. Lincoln helped abolish slavery and Jackson killed millions of native Americans. Oh, yeah, and the French helped out the Confederacy during the Civil War here.
Second, Republicans hold dear the essense of God in our government. Not a specific God, but just the acknowledgement of a higher power than mankind. The separation of church and state that leftists cling so dearly was written by a former KKK member turned justice Hugo Black.
Just thought I would throw that out there and let anyone comment on it.

lhommeamericain: I agree with the facts in your post up to the point of separation of church and state. It wasn’t Justice Black (a great man, btw) but it was our founding father’s themselves – particularly Thomas Jefferson who we can thank. Religious freedom in the States is (so I was taught) a major motivation to move to this country. Donerail

By the way, who in your founding fathers were really true christians ? Were there any at all ? I was told all these guys grew up during the Enlightenment, and therefore didn’t give a rat’s ass about bible and jesus and stuff. Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton … at best, all these guys were deists.

CRC

The actual wording for seperation of church and state was by Justice Hugo Black in his interpretation of the First Amendment. (I disagree that he was a good man because I find it hard to think that anyone good could have been affiliated with the KKK. Or at least, from what I know of him.)
As for the founding fathers, I can neither conform nor deny that they were Christians. It is kinda late and I am tired. However, I would be glad to look over any literary material denying that our founding fathers were Christians. The wording of the Declaration of Independence and of the Constitution does acknowledge a higher power.

lhommeamericain/crc95: Washington, Jefferson, and Madison were probably Christain but certain very much in favor of separating Church from State. Here is some readings of Madison (the author of the 1st Amendment):

All quotation taken from Robert S. Alley, ed., James Madision on Religious Liberty, pp. 37-94.
———————————————————————-
James Madison (1751-1836) is popularly known as the "Father of the Constitution." More than any other framer he is responsible for the content and form of the First Amendment. His understanding of federalism is the theoretical basis of our Constitution. He served as President of the United States between 1809-1817.

Madison’s most famous statement on behalf of religious liberty was his Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, which he wrote to oppose a bill that would have authorized tax support for Christian ministers in the state of Virginia.

Other sources for Madison’s beliefs are his letter to Jasper Adams, where he argues on behalf of letting religion survive on its own merits, and a 1792 article in which he suggests that there is no specific religious sanction for American government.

Finally, a good deal of Madision’s Detached Memoranda concerns the issue of religious liberty. This material is particularly important in that it gives Madision’s views of a number of events that are sometimes disputed by accomodationists (eg., congressional chaplains, days of prayer, etc.).
———————————————————————-

Direct references to separation:

The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State (Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819).

Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and & Gov’t in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history (Detached Memoranda, circa 1820).

Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together (Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822).
I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them will be best guarded against by entire abstinence of the government from interference in any way whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order and protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others. (Letter Rev. Jasper Adams, Spring 1832).

To the Baptist Churches on Neal’s Greek on Black Creek, North Carolina I have received, fellow-citizens, your address, approving my objection to the Bill containing a grant of public land to the Baptist Church at Salem Meeting House, Mississippi Territory. Having always regarded the practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, I could not have otherwise discharged my duty on the occasion which presented itself (Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina, June 3, 1811).

donerail: nice post!

I couldn’t help noticing how during Madison’s time the Baptists were trying to bridge the separation of church and state. It’s still the same story going on today, those Baptists…bunch of holy rollers, as we call them up here in my house.

kfowler5 : "after all we have the best economy in the world" ? I’m afraid not. Actually your economy is on the point of collapse. The dollar is at record low points (for the last 10 years) against the Euro and the euro is doing pretty badly itself. Economists in the US regard your deficit as "un-sustainable", In remarks to the European Banking Congress in Berlin 19/Nov/2004, Mr Greenspan argued that the US could not continue to run such large deficits in the long term since this would imply an unsustainable build-up in foreign liabilities that would be increasingly difficult to service. US citizens might no concern themselves about the poor economy as much of it is actually now owned by overseas investors. Actually the "Far East" economy is far stronger than anybody else’s at the moment (though is smaller in size only because it is made up of several smaller countries).

kfowler5 : "man who believes in right from wrong, loyalty to wife and family, obeying the law, and who has morals and religious faith." Whilst not myself religious, I remember being taught that the bible clearly states ?Though shalt not kill? ? no exceptions about regime change, oil or anything like that. Under international law, the invasion of Iraq was illegal. The UN had not authorised the war. Going to war on the grounds of regime change is illegal. This is "black and white" and has nothing to do with "how great the US is or is not". Holding prisoners illegally without charge or appearing before any court does not show any moral strength. These actions have been criticized by human rights organisations around the world, yet Mr. Bush just ignored it all ? the actions of a moral man ?

As a European I could not care to much who is in power in the US, that is the business of US citizens. However, in the international world we live in today, I do care what that person does in so far as it affects other economies and countries. For example, the rest of the world is extremely concerned about Global warming and climate change. Yet the largest producer of greenhouse gasses refuses to participate in remedial actions ? preferring instead to continue burning fossil fuels at an alarming rate. This type of selfish action impact the entire world. If the US wants to be regarded as a great nation by the rest of the world it has to start behaving like a great nation and not just behave in a selfish self-interested way.

If it was illegal,Why hasnt the Un done any thing about it? Just wondering.An i sadly dont see Europ and the use geting back to how we once where.Even if we get a guy europeens like i still see a lot of hate and anger between us.Sadly i think its going to stay that way untill some thing big brings our country’s people and goverments together. I might be worng.

LVB: Thank you. I presume you have been or are going to Quebec City. It is interesting to see how js is trying to dialogue with kfouler5. Good entertainment. You have to give her an "A" for trying. Donerail

If it was illegal,Why hasnt the Un done any thing about it?

Papers have been submitted to the Hague War Crimes court providing evidence about/against Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair. In the UK, there is currently a legal move to impeach Mr. Blair. Don’t know what may be happening locally in the US.

These things are in progress but they are legal issues and thus take a very long time. In practice, both Mr. Blair and Mr. Bush will probably no longer be in office by the time their cases are reviewed. I do have the impression that these news of these types of things are more widely available in UK/Europe that in the US (maybe wrong on that because its ages since I’ve been to the US).

JS,
Please, our economy is far from the point of collapse. And as for the U.S. deficit, that is nothing compared to the U.S. National Debt of $8,000,000,000 Trillion Dollars. Sorry but you are wrong, the actual wording of the Commandment is "thou shall not murder". The Bible allows for self defense and an "eye for an eye"
Once again you are wrong, the invasion of Iraq was legal under the Cease-Fire agreement Saddam signed with the U.S. And that Cease-Fire agreement stated that if Iraq did not comply with all the terms of the Cease-Fire the state of war between the U.S. and Iraq could be resumed anytime the U.S. saw fit. And also under U.N. article 1441 the U.S. gave Iraq one last chance to comply with Cease-Fire agreement it signed with the U.S. 12 years ago, and if Iraq did not comply then military force would be used.
And as for global warming who cares, most U.S. people don’t believe one word of it. And besides the U.S. people REFUSE to pay $5.00-$6.00 a gallon for gas.
Get it straight, we in the U.S. DO NOT CARE what you people in Europe think about the U.S. So go live in your own little Socialist fantasyland and you can pay $6.00 a gllon for gas.
And when you people in Europe start paying the U.S. military, then you can tell us how to us it. Until then stay out of our business.

I hate to tell you Iraq did not surrender at the end of the first Gulf War, it was only a Cease-Fire. Just like at the end of the Korean War, North Korea did not Surrender it was a Cease-Fire agreement which meant the war never really ended and could resume anytime either North Korea or the U.S. saw fit.
As for holding Prisioners illegally. Lets see, since the people fighting the U.S. did not wear a uniform of a military force of a country that means under the Geneva Convention those people are not prisioners of war, they are enemy combatants. And how do I know this, simple I was in the U.S. Air Force and I assure you I know the Geneva Conventions.

Kfool:

Please, our economy is far from the point of collapse. And as for the U.S. deficit, that is nothing compared to the U.S. National Debt of $8,000,000,000 Trillion Dollars

oh ok, thanks, Americans feel a lot more reassured now.

the actual wording of the Commandment is "thou shall not murder". The Bible allows for self defense and an "eye for an eye"

Proof that any religious writing says one thing and the opposite and that it is very dangerous to let idiot humans try to make rules off of its words. See : Bible, Koran, etc.

Once again you are wrong, the invasion of Iraq was legal under the Cease-Fire agreement Saddam signed with the U.S. And that Cease-Fire agreement stated that if Iraq did not comply with all the terms of the Cease-Fire the state of war between the U.S. and Iraq could be resumed anytime the U.S. saw fit.

So where did Iraq did not comply ? Possession of WMDs ? hahahahahahahahahaha good one

And as for global warming who cares, most U.S. people don’t believe one word of it. And besides the U.S. people REFUSE to pay $5.00-$6.00 a gallon for gas.

Yeah … better keep the gas at $0.99 a gallon and let your children and grandchildren die of suffocation, asphyxia, or lung cancer, right ?

North Korea ? Interesting you should mention it. Why didn’t you chose to go after NK in 2003, when it was at that time a clear and imminent threat to the US ? It this a balls problem ??

And how do I know this, simple I was in the U.S. Air Force and I assure you I know the Geneva Conventions.

Please you can’t even tell your own breakfast from a bowl of dung, so why would you start knowing about legal stuff ??

CRC

I thought that this area of the forum might have been for serious discussion. However, when I see comments like "Get it straight, we in the U.S. DO NOT CARE what you people in Europe think about the U.S." ……

"they are enemy combatants" ? under international law there is no such thing (as clearly stated by US Human Rights organisations and may others). Certainly some of those "taken" to Guantanamo Bay were not fighting the US or anything else. They have eventually been released without charge, having lost several years of their lives. It is difficult to comment of others as nobody has access to them. They certainly do not seem to have been charged or brought before a court.

If Americans do not care what the rest of the world thinks about them then fine. There is no reason why they should. There is no reason whatsoever why they should comply with international laws agreed to by them ? they clearly can (and do) just unilaterally ignore them (e.g. Steel import taxes – WTO ruling against US).

kfowler5, you may not care about the US deficits but Mr Greenspan does seem to.

kfowler5, "Until then stay out of our business." Is actually what the people of the UK, Spain, Australia, etc. wanted to do but Mr. Bush really wanted other countries to ?join the gang? Maybe a flippant comment but "can you stay out of ours as well" – which is clearly quite impossible with internationalisation and such interdependence and trade links between counties

For your information, regarding US Security Council Resolution 1441: nowhere in Resolution 1441 is there any language indicating that the Security Council has authorized Member States to use force. The clear and consistent formula used by the UN Security Council when authorizing force is that `Member States’ are `authorized’ `to use all necessary means’ or `take all 200 necessary measures’ in pursuit of a specified goal. None of this language appears in Resolution 1441. Secondly, Resolution 1441 provides at paragraphs 4 and 11 that if the inspectors of UNMOVIC or IAEA find that Iraq has made false statements or omissions in its declaration under Resolution 1441, and that it is not cooperating with the inspectors in revealing and destroying weapons or materials, then they will make a report to the Security Council. Paragraph 12 of Resolution 1441 provides that on receipt of such a report the Security Council will convene to consider the situation and the need for compliance. In other words the Security Council has specifically stated that it will monitor compliance itself. Thirdly, on the passage of Resolution 1441, all the Permanent Members including the ambassadors of the US and the UK made clear statements to the Security Council that the resolution contained no `automaticity’ and `no hidden triggers’. It was only on this understanding that the Resolution was adopted at all. The first draft of Resolution 1441 had been rejected by France, Russia and China precisely because it stated that "breach [of Resolution 1441] authorizes Member States to use all necessary means to restore international peace and security in the area."

For your interest, an except from a report from the UN Commission on Human Rights
"More than two years after the first of the detainees arrived in the US Naval Base in Guantanamo Bay, Camp X-Ray and its successor Camp Delta, the United States Government continues to exert unfettered executive power in total disregard for the rule of law. Hundreds of detainees remain held in tiny cells for up to 24 hours a day without any legal process."

I could go on but, sorry, but if we are to have reasonable discussions here, then lets discuss things based on information in a sensible manner based on some facts. I welcome people disagreeing with me but I would appeal for better argument than "I know ‘cos I was …".

CRC,
Well I have news for you. If someone breaks into my home to steal anything I have every right to protect my home anyway I see fit. If that means I have to kill the person breaking into my home that is what I am going to do. And guess what I already checked with the Attorney General of my state, under the law I have every right to use deadly force against anyone threating the immeadate safety of my family and security of my home.
Well lets see how about Saddam was supposed to sell oil to feed his people, but instead Saddam sold oil to by weapons from France & Germany and those two countries gladly took the bribe. And Saddam was supposed to kick out the U.N. weapons inspectors in 1993 but he did. Saddam also wasn’t supposed to fly any type of aircraft in the U.N. no fly zones above and he did, thats why at least two types U.S. and British planes shot down Iraqi jets in the no fly zones.
Right as much as the environmentalists complain about the global warning, they would be the first to complain if gas hit $5.00 a gallon. And you see these people like Michael Moore complaining about the environment, but I assure you they ride around in a choffer driver car thats wastes for gas and pollutes the air more than the SUV I drive. And your buddy Kerry claims to be an environmentalist, but he owns a PRIVATE JET & five SUV’S.
Lets see maybe because Korea already has a nuclear bomb, and the didn’t want to lay waste to an entire region. So we decided to yake of Iraq before they became a real threat again. Once a country has the nuclear bomb there isn’t much you can do unless you are prepared to use nukes yourself, and if Bush did that in North Korea all you liberals would be saying Bush wiped out a few million people & that the radiation from the nukes will cause our children to be born with birth defects. So Bush can’t win either way.
And can my breakfast from dung. And simple, everyone in the service has to know the Geneva conventions just in case they are captured and held as a P.O.W.
So write me back when you have actually researched something and know what you are talking about, until then go climb back under the rock you came from.

JS,
The U.S. does not go by International War, the U.S. goes by the Articles of war under the Geneva conventions. Look them up, and then you can talk about it.
The U.S. only agreed to International Laws in civilian matters, not military ones. In military ones the U.S. goes by the Geneva conventions.
The U.S. have every right to impose a tariff on any product entering the U.S., god knows europe does it to our products.
There is a big difference between a defit and the $8,000,000,000 U.S. national debt that we will never pay off.
Here’s a clue, almost every country in the world receives some type of aid from the U.S., be it money, food, and etc. and the U.S. is just collecting on those markers owed to us.
And as for 1441, no where in the resolution did it say the U.S. couldn’t use force. It said Iraq would face major repercutions, what does that mean spit balls? U.N. sactions didn’t work, the oil for food program proved that. In plain english the U.N. wanted to talk the talk, but didn’t want to walk the walk.
Sorry but I have news for you, the U.S. is the U.N. Without the U.S. the U.N. wouldn’t have any teeth at all.
And about Camp X-Ray, who cares about International rights organizations. The U.S. goes by the Geneva conventions, come back when you have actually looked them up.
Thats right, lets have discussions based on actual information. Look do a little research into the Geneva conventions before you spew a bunch of bolona. Unlike you I research things before I talk about them.

js/crc95: The two of you should be ashamed of yourselves. kfouler5 is obviously deranged and the two of you have no mercy or compassion. If SalB was still around I would report the two of you.

Donerail

kfouler5: Don’t let those non-American make such a fool of you. Defend yourself with a good argument and some facts for gawds sake, you pussy. (BTW, don’t forget to bring soap-on-a-rope when they haul you off to The Can for killing someone who was trying to B&E your trailer.) Love, Donerail

donerail: hahahahahahahahahahahah

Leaving for Quebec City next week for some R & R… I’ll be in Paris in april..

LONG LIVE FRENCH CULTURES!

kfowler5: Communicating over forums can be difficult. I assume from your language style and comment that you are young (at school ?). Great. I think it good and important that youth participate in such discussions. However, facts are important things. Maybe check some of your information with your school teachers ? or even start a discussion group in your class.

For example "And as for 1441, no where in the resolution did it say the U.S. couldn’t use force". It did not say a lot of things. Just because it does not say you cannot do something does not mean that you can do it. It did not say that I could not walk into my bank with a gun and take loads of money that was not mine. However, should I do this and use the fact that 1441 did not say I could not as a defence I would (quite rightly) not get very far.

I am neither a lawyer nor an economist and so am thus dependent on such qualified people to provide information for me to form my opinions. I ideally take as many different opinions from such people to help form a balanced opinion. When the currency of a country is of low value it indicates that others do not want to hold that currency (due to poor economic conditions in that country). When Mr Greenspan states that the US deficit represents "unsustainable build-up in foreign liabilities" (his words).

Camp X-Ray, who cares about International rights organizations many people around the world do (and so would you if somebody committed a similar human rights offence affecting you). Most people are a bit more caring about others and so do not need personal experience to start caring.

Sensible discussion cannot be made where, when presented with fact the counter argument is "we don?t care", and then do dispute other facts. The Geneva Convention is only one of many agreements that affect how countries may interact (including aggressive actions) ? yet it is the only one you seem to have any knowledge of (‘cos you keep referring to it).

The World Trade Organisation is a worldwide body that the US has is a member of and the US has agreed to follow its rules. Thus having agreed to follow its rules, the US cannot then unilaterally decide that a rule it has previously agreed to is not convenient so will just ignore it. Were such things to happen there would be no point to the rule in the first place. In the case of Steel Import Tariffs, this has actually completely backfired on the US as the manufacturers who previously had components made in the US found that the steel tariffs imposed made in no longer cost effective to have the components manufactured in the US so they now import components made overseas from non-US steel ? thus not helping the US steel industry and having the knock-on effect of severely impacting the component industry in the US. Had the WTO rules been followed then the US component industry would not be in its current difficulties and the US steel industry would be unaffected.

Kfowler5, I do thank you in that I believe you have answered the main question not only in this thread but the entire "France/USA Rift" forum. With the "We can do what we want, where we want" and " the U.S. DO NOT CARE", " Camp X-Ray, who cares about International rights organizations " etc. it is hardly surprising there is a rift. Or is this some sort of clever "double argument" (make the people you disagree with look stupid by arguing their case excessively ?)

Once again I appeal for sensible discussion. Can we have an end to these comments that contribute nothing to the debate.

JS,
No, I am over 30 years old and a State Police Officer in Ct. And I served 8 years in the U.S. AirForce. Well as former member of the U.S. Air Force I do know what the Geneva Convention articles of war say, and the Geneva convention is the only one the U.S. cares about.
This is a war, and you can’t put war criminals on trial the same way you put civilian criminals on trial. In war innocent people die, that is just a fact. And the country who wins this war will be the one who is willing to do WHATEVER is necessary to win, and if that means killing civilians then that is what needs to be done.
Read your history most of the casualties in WWII were civilians. Why, because that is what the allies had to do to win the war. For God sake, the allies let Germany destroy the British city of Dresden and kill thousands of innocent people just to make sure Germany didn’t catch on that the allies broke the German’s secret codes.
The Geneva Conventions are the only ones I have knowledge about because I was in the U.S. Air Force. And everyone in the U.S. military is required to know the Geneva conventions just in case they are captured and held as a P.O.W., and as I said before the Geneva Conventions are the only articles of war the U.S. cares about. And every country is supposed to follow the Geneva Convention articles of war.
Wrong the WTO does not have the right to dictate U.S. trade polices, only the U.S. congress has the right to do that. And that is what President Bush is doing by putting tariffs on imported steel, he is protecting U.S. interests which is the reason why the AMERICAN PEOPLE elect the President of the United States and not the U.N.
And again research the Geneva Conventions before you spew lies about them.
And I believe it is time for you to wake up and realize war is a dirty and messy business where people die, especally civilians.
I was living in the real world while you wear still in pampers.

I agree entirely, war is dirty and messy. Fortunately it is often avoidable. I agree there were horrible atrocities carried out in WW2, nothing for anybody to be proud of. Fortunately, may of us have learnt from our mistakes and now seek better ways to achieve the same goals.

You are quite correct, the US can decide its own trade/import policies. However, what other countries reasonably expect is that when the US agrees to something it sticks with that agreement rather than just ignoring certain portions that it considers inconvenient at a particular time. The agreement I refer to are about international trade tariffs and are agreements through the WTO. After all, Mr. Bush is now trying to use those same agreements to force the rest of the world to purchase GM crops (when people do not want to buy them) – (the rest of the world is not imposing tarrifs, just not buying them as they cannot sell them to anybody and they rot on shelves in Europe). You cannot have it both ways (i.e. you cannot break an agreement one minute and then enforce others to comply with it the next moment).

I apologise if I caused any offence or embarrassment in my incorrect assumptions about your age/status. Forums are quite difficult in that they are totally anonymous and peoples "names" (mine included often reveal little.

Focus on a specific document (the Geneva Convention) is limited in that there are many other courts, agreements and organisations dictating agreed international law. They are all valid and should all be included. You cannot pick and chose which laws you wish to obey at your convenience.

Does the Geneva convention allow prisoners to be stripped, have dog collars attached to them necks, and to be humiliated in such ways ? Does the Geneva Convention allow prisoners to be tortured (and we’ve all seen the photos), etc. Again, you cannot pick and chose which rules you obey at any moment. It’s all right, I know "war is dirty" and "you don?t care" and "when I pay for the US forces I can dictate what they do", etc.

When Europe saw the pictures of prisoners in Iraq being tortured and humiliated, most were horrified. When Mr. Rumsfeld was seen making his comments about prisoner treatment "Is that tough enough" people in Europe were horrified. We are talking about humans treating other humans ns an appalling manner. I’m afraid I find comments like "We (in the US) don’t care" and "War is dirty" quite distasteful and to be honest harden my attitude towards certain aspects of US culture. Such attitudes make a statement about the person making such comments.

I participate in forums to discuss different ideas, and whilst starting from a particular point of view feel that for there to be realistic discussion, people must have open minds about other ideas. What I seek I forum discussion is exchange of ideas and not to just "convince everybody that I’m right". I feel that some individual exchanges and responses are not so much discussion but arguing a blind adherence to the "America is great and can do no wrong" principle. I thus do not intend to respond to such extremist and unacceptable (to me) opinion.

js: I see you had the same first impression of kfouler5 that I did. I too thought he was in Grade school or early High School. I notice since he has been on this Forum that he has been moved from a Connecticut town cop to a State Police officer. It shouldn’t be long before he is with the CIA or FBI. Donerail

js: Your posts are insightful, thought provoking and logical. Donerail and I can appreciate your intellegence, however kfowler5 cannot. Don’t waste your time on him. I don’t

JS,
I accept your apology. As for all the International Laws for Human rights. This is a War the U.S. in the U.S. cannot realisticly go by every International Treaty for Human Rights, It would make it impossible to the U.S. to wage an effective war. That is why the U.S. only goes by the Geneva Conventions, if the other countries want the U.S. to follow the other International Human Rights Treaties I suggest the other countries along with the U.S. have another Geneva Convention and make new articles of war. That way everyone will having something they can agree on.
The Geneva Convention does not allow Prisoners of War to be tortured in any way or humiliated, however the Geneva Convention STRICTLY STATES that for someone to be considered a P.O.W. that person MUST be part of an organized military oranization for a country and be wearing an appropiate uniform. Under the Geneva Convention, anyone cought on the battlefield without a military uniform fight against the opposing forces will not be considered a P.O.W. and therefore not receive any of the protections. Instead they will be considered enemy combatants.
Sorry, but to most of the people here in the U.S. it seems like you people in Europe want it both ways. You want the U.S. to be the world police force and you want the U.S. to do something about every human rights mess in the world, but even though you people in Europe want the U.S. to do these things and Europe doesn’t want to pay one Euro for it you still want to tell how to do it.
Get this straight, the U.S. is fighting a people who are willing kill themselves, their own people, and innocent civilians to wipe us off the map. The only way you can win against a people like that is you have to be willing TO DO WHATEVER IS NECESSARY TO WIN.
Well if and when a 9/11 happens in Europe like it did in the U.S. I assure you most of Europe will change its mind. You people in Europe may not like how the U.S. wages war, but remember 9/11 happened to the U.S. not to Europe and I assure you the U.S. WILL WIN THIS WAR.
It is not a matter of the U.S. doing no wrong, I can assure the U.S. has done some pretty nasty things. But this is war, and the first thing that goes out the window when fighting a war is everyones conceptions of right and wrong. Its is not extremism, it is just a fact of life.
Instead of you people in Europe beating up on us Americans over these so-called human rights violations, why not try seeing it from out side and back us up and I assure you this war will end that much sooner.

js: kfouler5 states that the US must do everything to win. Wouldn’t you think that kfouler5 would re-enlist to help the US win? I think he would be a lot better off there and he would be able to kill and torture people. Better there than over here in Connecticut. Donerail

?You want the U.S. to be the world police force? ? One thing a very large portion of Europe does not want is the US to be the world police force. In general Europeans are very against the US taking this role, particularly given the way they carry it out in practice. This ?world police force? is the cause of much of the antagonism between Europe (population) and US (government).

9/11 was horrific and none of my comments should be interpreted as suggesting anything else. However, more people (civilians) have died in the terrorism in Northern Ireland (part of the UK) than in the 9/11 tragedy. What makes the Northern Ireland situation harder is that the terrorist activities were mainly funded from the US. The UK continually tried to initiate action by US authorities to stop this funding. However, the ?Irish vote? was too important to politicians and thus they would take no action.

Unfortunately, UK and US politicians have done the US a great dis-service in the case of the Iraq ware that is likely to make support for any subsequent actions by Europe far less likely. Presentation of forged documents to the UN Nuclear Inspectorate, the (UK) statement about Iraq being able to deploy WMDs within 45 minutes (and it turns out there were no WNDs, let alone 45 minutes), the subsequent human rights violations, etc. have made damaged and possibility for general support regardless of the case made. Irrespective of as to you agreeing or disagreeing with the mis-representation of facts, in Europe, Mr. Blair lied to both the parliament and the population (hence the initiation of an impeachment process). Many of the ?facts? presented by the Us government have been found to be either untrue of exaggerated. These make any subsequent support for future actions less likely. Note that the UK has ?escaped? much of the backlash as the UK population was generally against the war and thus Mr. Blair entered the hostilities without the support of his country/

Whilst I may not agree with them, your comments about ?demanding low cost fuel?, the ?don?t care?s, etc. reflect part of a US attitude that obviously Europe finds unpleasant. Think of it from e.g. a UK perspective, The US has been funding terrorism in your country for many years causing ongoing death and tragedy. US citizens have the attitude that they are the ?self appointed world police force?, they ?don?t care what you think?, the ?demand cheap fuel? polluting the atmosphere we all share, etc., etc. ? are you genuinely surprised that they do not all rush to your support when you want them to.

People support other people when they share common goals, have a basis for understanding, have a mutually beneficial relationship (that is not a one sided ?we do what we want when we want and are not constrained by our agreements? type arrangement). Freedom brings a burden of responsibility. There is far more to being a mighty nation than having a big army and lots of bombs. You need others to regard you as mighty and that cannot be done by force.

This rift between our people is going to hurt both country in the long run.Only becuase this means that when ether one of us,)and it will happen later down the road) needs help, nether one of us will help the other.And if we end up helping each other do you think ether countrys people will aprove?I doubt it.Haterd between our people has been in dorment for a long time.It’s just now we all have a reason to hate each other out in the oppen now.I say this beacuse of storys i have hurd a bout friends and family that traveled to france,Uk ect a bout how some americans are looked porely down on.And this was befor 911,of couse this happends when people come to our country to.Well im not sure if this is true for i have never ben out side the us,But it seems to me that this hateid between our people is just some thing that has been in siting in people and now thers a reason to let it out.But thats just my take on it and from what i see.I could be worng,and some times I am lol

Donerail,
Look who is calling the kettle black. After 9/11 I wanted my Commission reactivated, however I was in a car accident in 1999 and had a back injury so the Air Force said I was a liabilty do to my back injury.
I am only going to say this once Donerail, DON’T EVER QUESTION MY PATRIOTISM UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Oddone: I agree though am unsure about the underlying reasons. I have my predictable opinions about them but am open to other thoughts. Trouble with this sort of situation is that in the end nobody wins. I am far too much of an idealist (probably totally unrealistic as well). Whilst not religious, I believe that being fair, considerate, understanding, etc. helps everybody progress things and makes everybody?s life fuller and more productive.

I do feel strongly that the politicians (US and UK) and extremists have let the world down badly in that they have not only started a possibly unnecessary war (killing many innocent civilians) but have also split world opinion. I still believe (or maybe just hope) that their actions will not have long term impacts. However, I also consider that selfish attitudes, wherever, will only serve to aggravate differences and lead to further conflict.

I am a British Citizen living in France. I am not proud of the actions of the UK parliament. Not only did they fail to represent the wishes of the UK population with regard to the war on Iraq, but, despite being critical of Guantanamo prisoner situation, they are actually holding a number of people justified by the same type of political decisions (i.e. without trial, without appearance before courts, etc., held solely on the decision of politicians). The UK actions on this have now been declared illegal by the highest court in the UK and declared to violate European law, yet the British government continues to hold these people without charge.

Whilst the UK is somewhat reserved about participating in Europe, I believe that the future of all countries lies with greater understanding and cooperation. Unfortunately, US and UK politicians and extremists at present seem to be in a fairy selfish state of mind.

I see words like patriotism and whilst in itself honourable, the world really does need to move on and think more along the lines of cooperation. I believe that Europe (without the UK) is making good steps in the right direction, and, whilst there are elements of self interest with some nations, the general attitude is one of working together to move forward ? though maybe I?m too much of an idealist.

JS,
Guess what, the U.S. never wanted the role of the World Police. But lets see, when some country in the world needs money, food, or military who do they call. They call the U.S. even the U.N. calls on the U.S. why, because none of the other major powers in thw world are walk the walk but they want to talk the talk.
Even Russia, a so called World Power asked the U.S. money and food. And later Russia asked the U.S. to forgive the money we lended them. Lets see most of the money and troops for N.A.T.O. come from the U.S. and Britain, from which I recall protected Europe from the Soviet Union for 40 years. And when President Bush wants to bring the U.S. troops home from Europe what does Europe do, they whine saying that removing the U.S. troops from Europe will hurt the Europian community. Like I said, Europe can’t have both ways.
Also after the Korean War South Korea begged for the troops to stay to protect them from North Korea, but again which countries military ended up staying in S. Korea? The U.S. thats who, not even Britain is in S. Korea. Right no one wants the U.S. to be the World Police but everyone asks for U.S. help, it’s time for the world to make it’s mind.
And about Northern Ireland, from what I recall even the U.S. had to intervene on some level there to make peace happen, and that happened during the Clinton years. Wait just a minute the U.S. NEVER funded Irish Terrorist activites in fact Britain is our closed friend, if I were you I wouldn’t make accusations without facts to back it up.
Again there you go making accusations with real facts to back it up. Lets see all of the U.S. intel agenies said Iraq had WMDs, Britain said Iraq had WMDs, The U.N. said Iraq had WMDs, even Bill Clinton and Kerry said Iraq had WMDs, and even Russia said Iraq had WMDs. Not all those Intel sources forged documents, they just made educated guess with the Intel available at the time. All those Intel agenies may have come to the wrong conclutions, but people are not perfect.
Oh, and I suppose Saddam killing his own people and putting them in MASS graves was ok. Come on, Saddam gassed his own people. No matter how you slice it Saddam had to go.
And from what I recall, it was British Intel that told the U.S. that Saddam was trying to make a nuclear bomb again, not the other way around.
I have friends in Europe and from what they tell me your fuel prices are so high because of taxes, that is not the U.S.s problem. You in Europe are mostly taken of from cradle to gave and you even gets 6 weeks vacation every year when we in the U.S. only get 2 weeks.
From what I recall wasn’t it the U.S. that bailed the British butts out of the fire in WWII, wow it was. Come on you guys eben have to pay $300.00 a year just own a T.V.
Lets get this straight, because you let the British Government tax you to death which includes your gas that is not the U.S.s fault thats the British peoples fault.
Freedom, British people know nothing of freedom. I have read the British Constitution, and no where in it does say the British people have Freedom of Speech. And I have also rearched the British Criminal Justise System, and from what I understand in the British system you are Guilty until Proven Innocent.
Here in the U.S. our Constitution says the U.S. people have Freedom of Speech, and we are considered Innocent until proven Guilty in our Criminal justice System.
So before you judge us here in the U.S. I would take a good hard look in the mirror, and stop blaming other people for what you letting your own government do.
Oh really, god forbid if Britain needs any military help again. Who will Britain call, I assure you it won’t be France or Germany. Britain will call the U.S. if it ever needs military help again and you know it. So I get it the U.S. bad until Britain needs our help again.
From what I recall Britain asked for U.S. help during the Falkland War, and the U.S. gave Britain the use of our Satilites.

Oddone,
The British people may have mis-conceptions about the U.S. based on what they here from the British media. But I assure if Britain ever needed U.S. help for anything, I believe the U.S. government wouldn’t hesitate to Britain that help and I also believe the U.S. people would back their government for doing it.

I guess your right.it just seems that all this hate between us is just makeing it seem grim.And it just seems to me any ways that if some thing like that god forbid happend to where we realy did need each other it seems that people would just be like "aww well thay made ther own graves thay can lay in it" type of attitude.But i see what you mean.By the people backing ther goverment in that kind of senerio.

Kfowler5: "And about Northern Ireland, from what I recall even the U.S. had to intervene on some level there to make peace happen" ? I?m afraid is absolutely incorrect. Mr. Bush did visit Northern Ireland but had no significant meetings nor input in the few hours he was there. His visit to the UK was a PR visit for US consumption. Most of his time was spent in formal receptions, being shown round places, etc., though he did have a brief private discussion with Mr. Blair. In the UK his visit had the effect of lowering their opinion of him (to UK poputation), though I guess it was aimed at PR for the US. It is quite probable that his Press and publicity placed a somewhat different spin on this for political reasons but afraid you have been taken in by US publicity there.

Kfowler5: "it was British Intel that told the U.S. that Saddam was trying to make a nuclear bomb again, not the other way around." ? forged documents were presented to the UN Nuclear Inspectorate. However, the UN Nuclear Inspectorate has never revealed the source of these documents so I think you are jumping to conclusions here without evidence. Both UK and US made many mistakes but you cannot jump to this conclusion. Certainly it was not the UK that played a phoney recording to two people discussing WMDs to the UN.

Europe is currently initiating the "European Defence force", a Europe wide military force to deal with European issues and needs. The US is strongly against this which conflicts totally with your dependency arguments.

Kfowler5: "British people know nothing of freedom" Sorry. Did I miss something here ?

Kfowler5: "we are considered Innocent until proven Guilty." exactly. Something unique for US citizens or for all people (including aid workers arrested in Afghanistan and held without charge at Guantanamo for several years and then released. (I know you "don?t care", "war is dirty", etc.)

I’m afraid that the quality of some of the facts presented by some and the associated arguments had dropped to the level where this is just getting stupid. Saying one thing one minute something conflicting the next. Modifying the facts to suit ones case. Sorry but I am now no longer going to respond to such daft discussion.

"I believe the U.S. government wouldn’t hesitate to Britain that help and I also believe the U.S. people would back their government for doing it"

I?m afraid that this is simply not the case. Since the end of the war, Mr. Bush has proved something of an embarrassment to Mr. Blair in his public statements.

The UK have asked Mr. Bush to take corrective action over Steele Import tariffs ? yet they have done nothing. Mr. Blair has asked Mr. Bush to help with the Palestine situation (Mr. Blair needs this for his own personal political reasons) but again nothing. The UK has asked the US to moderate its legal action over forcing GM crops on countries that cannot use them but nothing. The UK has asked the US to participate in the Kioto protocol but nothing.

And the list goes on. The US appears only prepared to help anybody else when it is actually intheir own interest (so it isn’t really help atall).

The UN believed Iraq may have had WMDs based on evidence presented by other countries. Being uncertain it sought peaceful and independent means to check this rather than actions involving death and destruction.

In the UK I used to live a few miles from a US air base and I can tell you, everybody in the area was very very pleased when the US went home (and there was no problem with noise from the planes).

Whilst I consider history useful, most countries change and move on, learning to behave better. However, as it has been raised by other posts, I believe it was actually the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour the persuaded the US to enter the war. Initially only against the Japanese, though Germany and Italy then declared war on the US (not the other way round). Prior to this, US "assistance" had been very much on the basis of wanting something in return (e.g. Sept 1940, transfer of 50 old destroyers to UK in return for use of 8 UK Atlantic bases). Maybe also worthy of note is that, for example Canada joined the Allies during WW2 when Germany invaded Poland ? it being a further 2 years before the US entered the war (in response to Pearl Harbour and Germany/Italy declaring war on the US). However, this is ancient history. Countries move on but we should learn the lessons from past mistakes.

js poved my point.If it came down to it.We cant rely on each other.Soon it will be every country for its self with the exception of europ.Thers an saying i hurd form a air man a few years back." we may say where allies but realy every country is out for them selfs.In an instent thay would stab eachother in the back".The ww2 thing you said.ALl tho true but all so reamber if im mestaken feel free to corect me please.But back in ww1 when we help out we all so exspcted the eroupen countrys to pay us back.and thay did but thay got mad a bout that.Just on how some of france and brit people talk a bout our involment makes.So even if we did get involed be for the japanese attack thay would think we where just going to make them pay us back.Well thats just was i have read some where.makes me sad.all tho most of it is true,some times yall talk as if what our troops did was nothing.My grandpa may he rest in peace would turn over in his grave.he was a d-day vet and was damn proud of what he did.As far as uk happy a bout us leaving.In germandy thay are veary up set.This move could hurt eroupeen economy.well in some cases not all as with where your from.

kfouler5: I would certainly agree that the US Airforce knew what it was talking about when they referred to you a liability. They also knew that you were not a Patriot. You don’t have to be in the Armed Forces in order to help the Iraquis with their freedom. You could drive a truck or even be a cop. The truth is you have no balls. Donerail

I think history is useful in that we must learn from it, but just because something bad happened in the past does not and should not colour a country forever.

With regard to the "paying back the US", I believe this is true. Certainly the US assistance prior them entering the war was on what was termed a "lend and lease" basis (i.e. with charges being levied, either leased or "you break it you buy it&quot.

I certainly did not intend to minimise or degrade the assistance provided by the US in the WWs, but rather to provide some balance a few posts that had suggested that the US had leapt to assist and liberate Europe. There was undoubtedly much tragedy and suffering in both WWs and I only wish the world was not continuing down such a path. I genuinely believe that nations should be seeking to fully explore every alternative before starting a war (as suggested by the French, Germans and Russians in the case of the recent Iraq war).

Oddone,
unlike some people in the U.S. and the world I have faith in the American people and most of the people in the world. After all before this past election everyone was saying Bush was a war crinimal and was going to loose the election. But again I had faith in the American People and dispite the problems in Iraq the American People voted to re-elect Bush with a 60% popular vote.
And why is that you say? Simple, no one ever votes out a Wartime President and Kerry kept changing his views on everything based on the polls for that week. Unlike Bush where everyone knew where he stood.
And after 9/11 who was the first country to even suggest retribution against Osama and offered to help us, it was Britain.

fJS,
I didn’t say Bush intervened, I said President Clinton intervened.
And about the nukes, during a speech to the U.S. people President Bush said that Britain Intel told the U.S. that Saddam was trying to build the bomb again. And if you want proof I still have the speech on dvd from when I recorded it.
Ya right Afghan aid workers without military uniforms on fighting against U.S. troops and spying on them. Sorry, they weren’t wearing military uniforms therefore they are not P.O.W.’s and since they are not American citizens they are not entitled to the rights of American citizens.
The last time I checked if a U.S. citizen committed a crime in Britain, they would be tried under British Law not U.S. Law. So unless Britain is willing to change that I would keep your mouth shut.
Just like a liberal, when you loose an agruement you go home with your head between your legs.

JS,
Bush has stated time and time again the U.S. would not deal with Arafat. Man Clinton offered Arafat everything he wanted except Jerulsalm and what did Arafat do, turn Clinton down.
Here we go again you Brits are upset because the U.S. wanted something in return for our help. Well welcome to the REAL WORLD, nothing is free. If you want something you have to pay for it.

Oddone,
JS is one of the few who live in fantasy land and not the real world. JS is one of those people that expect something for nothing, but JS has to do is get it through his head nothing in this life is free.

Donerail,
There you go again talking a bunch of ****. You are the one who has no balls after all I don’t see you there. And besides I refuse to put my life on the line for a bunch of ungrateful idiots.

JS has to do is get it through his head nothing in this life is free.

Quite the contrary. In Europe and other parts of the world we have something called charity. People willingly and voluntarily contribute their personal money to special organisations that then help those in need. This help provided is not charged for. When we give food and assistance for this aid we do not charge those receiving the assistance. I guess from what you say the US operated differently. The entire world is not based on commercial operations.

For example, in the previous Gulf War (when Iraq invaded Kuwait), the US invoiced Iraq for their military (etc.) costs, yet none of the other participating alliance countries did, only the US. In some respects this would make them mercenaries – a "Gun for hire".

There are many threats to the world. Terrorists are not the only threats. Extremists of all motivations can represent a danger. Religious extremists (Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, etc.), political extremists (left wing, communist, right wing, etc.). The challenge for governments is to maintain freedom of speech and liberty whilst countering such threats to society. People who can only blindly believe in what their governments are telling them and do not think for themselves are a threat (in that they allow the governments unprecedented power to do what they want without being questioned). At the moment in the UK and US we are seeing liberty and human rights compromised all in the name of fighting terrorism. Whilst terrorist attacks represent a degree of danger, the politicians have massively exaggerated these dangers to provide themselves the justifications for imposing restrictions on liberty and human rights. Recently the highest court in the UK (the law lords) clearly stated that this was what the UK government was doing and that such erosions of liberties and human rights represented a far greater threat than terrorism.

The US (and UK) cannot keep changing its reasons for the Iraq War after it has finished as to do so indicates that there was no real justification for it before hand. Now we are told "So we decided to yake of Iraq before they became a real threat again." But previously we were told that it was a threat not that it could become a threat but that it already was a threat ! By the way, Iceland could also become a threat, as could Luxembourg and the Danes might be a bit threatening in the future ? who knows. So do you invade all these countries too ?

It is quite disheartening to hear some of the comments posted here. Things like:
"And as for global warming who cares"
"the U.S. DO NOT CARE"
"TO DO WHATEVER IS NECESSARY TO WIN"
"the first thing that goes out the window when fighting a war is everyones conceptions of right and wrong"
"and if that means killing civilians then that is what needs to be done"
"war is a dirty and messy business where people die, especally civilians"
"the U.S. cannot realisticly go by every International Treaty for Human Rights"

Makes one wonder what future there really is for the human race.

K5:

Bush did not get 60% of the vote…he barely got 51%…and at least 2 percent were "scared" into voting for him and his chickenhawks…

Get your facts straight…if you can…

kfouler5: Thanks for admitting to the Forum that you are anything but a Patriot and that you have no balls whatsover. And by the way, js has not lost any argument with you. On the contrary, he or she is slapping you upside the head continually and you are too dumb to notice. It is great entertainment. Keep those mindless neo-con soundbites coming. Donerail

Kfowler5: I hate to be the one to disagree with the fact you present as "the allies let Germany destroy the British city of Dresden and kill thousands of innocent people just to make sure Germany didn’t catch on that the allies broke the German’s secret codes", but Dresden is actually in Germany and it was actually the Allies who destroyed it – a quite horrendous act as it had no military significance and caused the death of many civilians.

Maybe I’ve misunderstood something, and if this is so, please do correct me. I did live in the UK for quite a few years and never came across a Dresden – but there again you say it was destroyed so I probably wouldn’t have come across it. Did Germany destroy the UK Dresden in retaliation for the Allies destroying the German Dresden (or was it the other way round). Apologies, I’m getting silly now (but it is nearly Christmas), though one should not make light of such tragedies.

JS,
Wrong the world is based on commerial operations otherwise there would be no need for money. And the world is not based on commerialism, and I bet you work for a Corporation so what does that make you. But thats right I forget everyone in Europe gets taken care from cradle to grave, but what did I expect from a bunch of socialists.
As for the Gulf War, that works for me. When a country wants the U.S. to fight their wars for them, the U.S. should be compensated and at least the U.S. is honest about it. The only thing free in this world is bad advice.
We don’t allow our government unprecedented power, we have our say every election cycle. And unlike you we here actually have the right to buy and carry firearms, so who has more freedom?
But when the election is over the U.S. people put their trust in their leaders to protect the U.S. BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY.
Please my right aren’t being compromised at all. Why, because I have nothing to hide. Those people who don’t the government looking into their lives just proves to me they have something to hide.
Please, there are no restrictions on my Liberty. I still have Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion, Freedom of the Press, the right to carry a firearm, and I can travel anywhere I want in the U.S. and that is all I care about.
Thats right, and if the U.S. sees Iceland becoming a threat then we will take care of them.
And by the way that was Britains problem before WWII, instead of Britain taking care of Germany before they became a real threat you just kept passiving Hitler. And look what it got you, the U.S. had to come bail you out.
Unlike Britain the U.S. learned from history, you take of a problem before they become a real threat.
Thats right, who care about global warming I plan on buying a bigger SUV that burns more fuel.
You can those comments are disheartening all you want, but it is all true and you know it.

IKO,
Sorry, I mis-typed. I meant to say he 60 million votes. Well at least we didn’t use the same play book for 30 years, if you elect Republicans Social Security will go broke.

Donerail,
On the contrary, I am honest unlike people like you. And remember no good goes unpunished.

js: Don’t let the facts get in the way of kfouler5’s arguments. With people like kfouler5 in the military, they very well may have confused a city here and a city there. Just like those WMDs. They’re out there somewhere. kfouler5 probably has so many neo-con pamphlets that it is difficult to keep them straight or tell one from another. Donerail

JS,
You are correct Dresdon is in Germany, but as for the civilians thats life.
However there was a city that the Allies let Germany bomb to keep the German’s from finding out that the Allies broke the German Codes, I will have reaserch it tonight.
I wasn’t making light of those tragedies, they just a fact of life and history. And you know what they say, those who don’t from history are cursed to repeat it.

Kfowler5: It may be that you are referring to a North Atlantic convoy rather than Dresden

Also, I should point out that your comment "You are correct Dresdon is in Germany, but as for the civilians thats life." would cause great offence to may in Germany and to many others. It shows a total disregard for life and any sort of reasonable behaviour (even in war). The bombing of Dresden was a totally despicable act by the Allies. Dresden was not a military target and had no military significance. It is the sort of action in war that causes leaders to be on trial for war crimes. I appreciate that US forces care little about civilian casualties (as per you previous posts and many tens of thousands of dead civilians in Iraq).

js: It is rather difficult to attach the characteristic of civility to an event such as war. Dresden wasn’t much different than London, Caen, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Leningrad, the small Vietnam villages etc. etc. etc. Once war starts it is rather challenging to make a purse out of a sow’s ear. Unfortunately, most people now are like the half-wit kfouler5 and have not experienced the ruthlessness of war. Those of us who have, would sure try to do everything possible to avoid it. That said, we failed in that process with regard to Iraq. "Old Europe" sure failed in that process in reverse. But now what do we do? Let a vicious and irrational theocracy get a huge foothold in world politics and economics? It took four months of negotiations for the French to obtain the release of the two obviously innocent reporters. Why did it take four MONTHS and not four hours? Can you imagine negotiating a political settlement with these folks? Donerail

Donerail : by vicious and irrational theocracy, what are you referring to ? Iraq or the US ?

CRC

let me put it this way.If we where trying to kills the ceivilans.we would of done a lot more bombings,and droped a hell of a lot more bombs in place.In war its hard not to kill cevilans.Its realy inpossable to just try not to kill them.We have tryed not to but it happends.I dont care if its france,usa,gemandy or even the uk.If your at war cevilans will get cought in the crossfire.is it right?no of couse not but it happends.Dos it mean we dont care?no thats worng to but its hard not to end up killing them.It happends.On both sides of war.

crc95: Good observation. I was thinking of Iraq but I suppose you could infer the US. The Bible thumping hasn’t reached the blue states yet, however. When it does, I think I will become a tele-evangelist and get rich. That way I will be able to visit LaFrance more often and convert all the French heathens. Donerail

JS,
Well Germany should have thought of that before they started a war and killed 6 million Hebrews.
Wrong from what I read Dresdon had plants that built planes and bombs, so it did make it a target.
What is it with you people, war is a nasty business and when you fight a war you fight to win.

Look i know war is bad and all but you got to realise that no matter what country your form or what side your fighting for your going to have cavilans get hurt.Take Ivory Coast.Thers a video out in the net of french toops oppening fire at a crouds of people.I dont know who fired frist but a lot of unarmed people where killed.You see it isnt just us amaricans.its any army form any country.I can look for the video if you all want and ill e-mail where i got it to you cuz im not going to post links to gorry stuff like that.If you want the site where it is if i can find it and if its even true ill e-mail it to you if you like.Wether this video is true or not ill look for it.Just what floating a round the net.shoudlnt be to hard to find.Just thought id share my feelings on this.Im not trying to make a big point on this.And im not sure if this is even true.I have read a bout in in noname internt site but thay say there is a video of it happeing and stuff.All im trying to point out is that it seems like you eroupens not all fo you but some of you seem to act as if if you where in that war insetd if us you would of not had some army guys do what some of our guys did wich isnt true.Where all human and no matter where your from theres going to be some jacked up people in the army or airforce ect ect.it just seems to me,and my be im miss understanding you but like you think that sence you think europe wouldnt make the same mastakes.Wich isnt true realy.No matter where your from your going to have ideots do dumb things in war.Thats all im trying to say.any ways i’ll look in to this "french army video" thats saposably out there and see if its true or not.

Donerail:

If you become a tel-evangelist…you too can sin…and then ask God to forgive you in front of millions of people…and it will be OK…

Jim Baker…

Jerry Lee Lewis’s cousin, Jimmy Swagart got caught on tape visiting prostitutes…caught twice…cried on TV and asked God to forgive him…

Also, I wrote and told Jerry Falwell that he is a sinner…glutontry…Bible states…All things in moderation…

So, you too can become rich, spout the Bible to your listeners…and still go against what you are "preaching" to others about…Very interesting concept…isn’t it…???

ok as i thought it was easy to find.well i wached the video my self and i can tell you you can take this video ether way.You realy cant tell whos shoot at who or whats going on.Thay do show french army and lightarmored vircles but the camra man is to buissy running for his life to tell whats happeing.Its one fo thos videos that can be taken as ether "the french" shot at unarmed people or that thay where stot at and defened them selfs.Me personaly i dont know what to make of it.Can’t tell any thing honstly.Any way if you want to see it for your self.drop me ether an e-mail at inuyasha@gamshopping.com or aim me at kenrolf1213 and ill give you the link to the site.As i said its a video that can be taken both ways.It dont realy prove what was stated in the last post i did and in the news article i read.I guess it deepends on what a person wants to make of it.

oddone : I have links for you too :

http://www.google.com
http://www.babylon.com

They have this feature where you can translate your language into english. Might help you post.

CRC

im sorry if my post are hard to read as i said im dislexic ill try harder to spell better for you next time.sorry crc95

crc95: Normally I would say something. Donerail

Hello all!

Well, It’s December 26, 11 p.m. here in The Garden State, and I’m all packed to go to Quebec City tomorrow morning. I have 6 days of playing in the snow and eating good French food. The temperature tomorrow night is supposed to be -9 F so I guess I’ll be having a fire in the fireplace in my apartment tomorrow night.

I’ll have many photos to post online. I’ll post the link to the photos when it’s available.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh…Christmas vacation….life can be good when you’re a public school teacher Y’all have fun at work tomorrow Monday morning