French/Iraq connection. Is this true or media bias?

Yes, this IS media bias against the French. This line in the article says it all: "A Defense Department-sponsored report produced in February identified France as one of the top three suppliers of Iraq’s conventional arms, after Russia and China." However, this article would categorize the French as the ONLY country who sold arms to Sadaam, or as the primary arms seller. Look at the title of the article.

Why wasn’t this article written about the Russians, who were the MAIN suppliers to Sadaam? Why not about China? is it perhaps because it’s not politically correct to critisize the Chinese? The Chinese-Americans would take offence. If this was written about the Russians, how would this affect Russian/American relations? But the French are an easy target.

Before you critisize other countries involvement in the Middle East, the USA and the Bush admin. should look at their OWN past involvements with Sadaam. America is great at judging other countries, but tries to hide it’s own atrocities. Hypocrites.

Your statements to US hypocrisy notwithstanding, are you saying that this article holds truth however slanted that the French sold weapons illegally to Iraq? Frankly I’m not too concerned if you think the US is hypocritical or not. If this articleis true, the bottom line is that French weapons are being used to kill American soldiers.

Kermit making a post against French?? How surprising.

Don’t know about french weapon that kill american soldier, what I do know is that when saddam did gaz the kurd 10 years ago it was provided by USA… And it kills 5000 people in 3 days…!!! ROFLMAO!!! I think we can find 1000 example for all the country that sell arms… What a pathetic post, u must be very bored in life…

If you’re going to critisize one, then you critisize ALL. To pick one specific country because it’s politically correct to use them as a scapegoat smacks of racist crap. At that point, examine your own country’s actions, and the reason WHY they’d choose to "forget" the 1st and 2nd supplier of Sadaam, while scapegoating the supposedly 3rd supplier. Yes, this IS media bias. If you’re cannot see this, then you’re just as racist as Bush and his chickenhawks (if i may quote ikorrelim).

speaking of hypocracy, I jost LOVE those photos of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Sadaam! As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. Where are your nasty posts about that?

BUSH is the one who killed those 1000 American soldiers! HE is the one who sent them into Iraq for his own personal reasons! The Iraquis are defending their own country from hostile invaders, the Americans! Bush turned most of the world against the USA with his personal vendettas against Sadaam. Where are all the WMD? AND…I notice you NEVER mentioned the MANY, MANY thousands of dead Iraquis. I guess you don’t care about them because they’re Arabs. They’re nothing to you because they’re not "American". You’re as bad as Bush. Are you an ugly white male like Bush, too?

You can do all the ad hominem attacks you want, I served 8 years in the military so if you want to call me a chickenhawk so be it, I really don’t care. Also, I don’t understand why it’s necessary to call me a racist when I’m pointing out a concern when I call to question about an international issue about our traditional ‘ally’ the French. You know full well that this is not about race at all. This is about illegally selling arms to a nation under UN Sanctions. I also think that it’s wrong for China and Russia to sell arms but they’re not traditional allies in the sense that the French are nor do they really care about UN Sanctions like I thought France as a nation would.

LaVielle, you’re showing your true colors. I’ll leave it at that.

NO, you blithering idiot, this IS about race. It’s politically correct to pick on the French. However, write the same slanderous article about the Russians, and you damage American/Russian relations. Write the same crap about the Chinese and you damage American/Chinese relations, which are based on MONEY, Americans ordering cheap Chinese crap and re-selling at high profit in USA (10% of our foreign debt from CHINA is because of Wal-Mart, a place i REFUSE to enter). Plus the Chinese/Americans would be VERY upset and would make their case known nationally.

But the French are fair game. If French-Americans spoke out against these blatent media distortions and began to boycott any company/organization that kept up this crap, you’d see how FAST this would stop. I’m a French-American. And i VOTE. There are MILLIONS of French-Americans in the USA who are sick of this media crap. And we all VOTE. Remember that the next time you start slandering the French because it’s politicsally correct.

I WAS right. You ARE an ualy white male, but you’re UGLIER than Bush, in every sense of the word.

Speaking of racist remarks Lavielle,

I quote you: "I WAS right. You ARE an ualy white male, but you’re UGLIER than Bush, in every sense of the word. "

Your own words condemn you.

Kermit, I’ve just read the article and all I can say is that those Republican congressmen being quoted are 100 % right : we sold tens of thousands of Mirage fighter jets to Iraq, just a few days before the US-led invasion.

Unfortunately, all the Iraqi pilots that were supposed to fly them were missing.

Rumor has it they were all gone to help some friend in a nearby state to lose some election.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

CRC

is that the best you can do as a reply??? The truth about you DOES hurt, doesn’t it?

You’re a loser, big time.

crc: You’re such a wiseazz. I love it! heheheheheh 🙂

I think the loser is the one who is reduced to ad hominem attacks. One who can’t even think of an intelligent reply so must insult in order to feel better. We’re not at the a school playground anymore LaVielle. Grow up.

CRC you’re not much better than LaVielle. I was hoping for some more thoughtfull comments but that is sadly lacking in this forum.

I did reply to your stupid post, however, as you cannot read it and understand it in an intellegent, non-racist mindset, I decided to decribe you as I saw you. If you don’t like it, too bad. You are what you are. That is your problem, not mine.

I’m a proud French-American and I have NEVER missed a chance to vote in the US Presidential Election since i was of legal age. I will NOT miss this election either.

crc: Don’t worry, French-Americans are fed up with Bush’s French bashing. We will remember this at the polls.

kermit: crc was being sarcastic. But you couldn’t understand that. you’ve just proved what I said about you.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!!! 🙂

LaVielle, you have more of a problem with who I am than I do with you. Too bad you can only deal with it in insults. You’re reply was neither intelligent nor did it address the problem of France illegally sellings arms to Iraq, along with Chin and Russia.

LaVielle, I can only pity such a small minded person who cannot debate the issues but only spews canards and insults.

actually, it was Russia, then China, then France. However, your concentration on France, while brushing off Russia and China shows YOUR mindset and how you HATE the French. You’re not concerned about any conventional weapons. You’re just picking a country/culture you personally don’t like and using them as a scapegoat. That is being racist. If you don’t like what I have to say to you, too bad. I call it as I see it.

Kermit, I’ve learnt to know you. At some point, you will come up with some weird news article that you are hoping will prove Bush’s actions against Iraq right. You did that a few weeks ago with that can of rotten Dijon mustard they found in the desert. Then, more recently you were the first one ever to uncover a huge stock of WMDs somewhere.

So, since we’re trying to be nice with you and educate you and play with you, we just show you how wrong you are. And then you disappear for a few weeks, plotting some new attack against the mean, slimy, deceitful, treacherous French.

But you know what ? Frankly, the French don’t really care. To concur with what LVB wrote, maybe that’s what makes us an easy target : the French are such a rather laid-back bunch, that they simply don’t give a shït about which crook sold weapons to whom.

So, you may keep trying, but I’m afraid you might lose some valuable time.

CRC

I don’t hate France and I don’t hate French people. I brought up a concern with an article that I’m not sure is true or not and you make it to be an issue about race. You have some serious issues LaVielle and you should realize that I’m not one of them. I don’t know you and I hold no anger against you except for being disappointed that you can’t seem to get past your idea of me being some sort of racist.

A conservative newspaper like the Washington Times writing that crap, and quoting ONLY Republican senators. And you’re dumb enough to believe everything you read? Sure, if it slanders France.

Since you’re so gung-ho about Bush and nuking Arabs, why aren’t you enlisting again to fight in Iraq? They’re accepting old men, so go sign up! I’ll tell the French to aim a "missle" at you!

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH :-)))

CRC, I’m only trying to get a different perspective on the issues that concern America. I’m satisfied with the responses I’ve gotten because they’re pretty much what I expect. If you think it’s some sort of conspiracy to "get" at the french so be it. I really don’t care. I’m not here to change your minds about anything but again, I’m interested in getting a different perspective.

Wow LaVielle, I’m impressed with your ‘nuanced response. Actually I was questioning the veracity of the article myself. Thus the original post.

kermit: had you posted equal articles about the Russians and the Chinese, or posted a FAIR and BALENCED article, then crc and I might have replied differently. But you didn’t. You purposely posted a slanderous article written by a conservative paper that quoted only Republicans. Do you REALLY think that is FAIR and BALENCED???

When you play with fire, expect to get burned.

As crc said, you vanish for a few weeks, then try to dig up some slimy thing written by Republicans that "proves" the French are treacherous. When everybody kicks your butt in the forums, you vanish again.

You are far from kicking "my but" as it were, but you are doing nicely at looking foolish yourself!

your butt is kicked, and it’s bleeding bad!

You still never replied to my fair and balenced post. Or about Russia and China. Have you been hanging out with Amero-Franc?

LaVielle, read my posts if you are capable of doing that. I am beginning to doubt that you can. I made my reply to you about Russia and China.

ManuNice I was not making a post against the French but asking about the article’s veracity. Apparently you can’t tell the difference.

kermit: you really are too stupid, to believe everything the media publishes. You’re quite entertaining. Thank you for giving me a good laugh while you show me your "intellegence," or should i say ignorance.

It’s now time for me to cook dinner. A nice French meal after a stressful day at work is always a good thing.

crc: I opened a bottle of Gewertz and I still have some left. I got it in Turckheim, while visiting my cousins. I get a nice discount on the prices there because my cousins are very good friends with the vinyard owners Actually, I got 12 bottles of various kinds, and smuggled them in my carry-on bag. I smiled pretty at the US customs agent, and there were NO problems

Life is good 🙂

I don’t believe everything in the press that’s why I originally posted the article because I have my doubts about it. Apparently I made the mistake of posting this at a french forum because I get nothing but a lot of leftist, pseudo-intellectual crap. LaVielle Branch, thanks for sharing your shrill, arrogant, idiotic rants. Please enjoy your dinner and drink, take a Prozac and keep that tinfoil hat wrapped closely about your think skull.

Enjoy this site folks!!!

http://no-pasaran.blogspot.com/

Kermit, stating that u post here to get a different point of vue is as stupid as Dick Cheney say that if Bush is not elected they will be other terrorist attack in America.
U really think that we’re gonna buy that??? How silly of u, I can stop laughing that u used that argument, again u’re a very sad person and I wonder what are u doing here if u don’t like it.
Just go away, I’m sure there’s a nice forum on the Bush website, u will be able to bash all the french that u want over there i’m sure u will be encourage…
Each time u come here it is to start a rant against French people, i’m pretty sure we make u’re day here…
It is pointless and again sad to see people like u, thanks god theres some good shrink in USA so u’re not hopeless. BTW u’re not very talkative about the 5000 dead Kurd either… LOL…!

Enjoy this site Kermit: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html

Kermit: Donerail is now in the house. You asked if a Washington Times article demonstrated something? Pahleeze, give me an effing break! Anyone who reads the Washington Times for anything other than entertainment has to be psychotic. That said, remember that the USA and France are the biggest arms pimps in the world today. I ought to know, I am in the business. The French are more honest about it, however. To them its money and the balance of payments. To us, we b/s people that its about freedom and democracy. I would side with the French on an intellectual basis. From a technical standpoint, we make much better stuff. The F18 Superhornet, F15 Strike Eagle and M1 Abrams Tank etc etc all outperform the French counterparts. We also make our allies buy models that are not quite the most recent models. How trusting of us. Kermit, you must stay more active in these Forums. I have tried to liven them up without success. You did it with two sentences. Donerail

donerail, You’re in the arms business; you’re in the airlines business. My, you’re a busy little fellow?

SalB : that’s because he views his Harley as a flying weapon

Bye bye Kermit, we’ll miss you. Until next time ?

CRC

By the way Donerail, I’m interested in knowing your opinion on our Leclerc and our Rafale.

CRC

Kermit:

I can understand your position, being in the military, that is the "status quo" brainwashing technique. My son (Navy) and his Father (retired Navy) feel the same way, but I do not argue with him.

However, did you know that Halliburton was doing and probably still does business with Iran even with the sanctions the US put on them?

Did you know that Iraq was our buddy and we gave him the WMD’s to start with?

Did you know that these young men and women (18 youngest, 59 oldest) have died and been horribly maimed for life for oil?

And did you know, (I know because I work for the Veterans Administration) that Bush is giving the VA approx 900,000 budget increase in 2005 (ELECTION YEAR) which becomes effective October 2004) and then turns around (AFTER ELECTION) in year 2006 (which becomes effective October 2005 and cuts the VA budget by 500,000? How are we going to take care of the Iraq vets, some who will need care for the rest of their lives? How are we going to pay for approx. 300,000 more vets coming into the VA system when we can’t even handle the number of vets that we now have?

Did you know that there are actually vets now who cannot get into the system…why, because we are bursting at the seams with vets and have no room for them…Also, they are closing or trying to close veteran hospitals…

Sure, you are getting raises now, Why, because Bush needs you…If there was no war, you would not be getting raises (The same thing I told my son, and we both laughed when he said, "Yea Mom, George Bush needs me", and I said, "Damn Straight, he needs you"….

I am glad for all that the military gets, they deserve everything they get and more, however, try and look and think outside of the military box and see what is REALLY going on…God Bless you, our troops and America…

Kermit:

In my haste to post, I have figures wrong. George Bush will increase the Veterans Administration budget in 2005 (fiscal year begins Oct 2004) to 540,000, (election year…looks good), but then for Fiscal Year 2006 (after election) which begins October 2005, George Bush will cut the Veterans budget by 910,000…therefore, a DECREASE…Of course, most Americans, not paying close attention, thinks, Gee, Bushie is really helping our Vets…Ha, Ha..

You served for eight years, Donerail and I served during the Vietnam Era…when you are away from the military for a while and age a little like a good bottle of wine, I am positive that your views will change. All of our views change as we mature, some positive, some negative.

Kermit: You wrote "This is about illegally selling arms to a nation under UN Sanctions. I also think that it’s wrong for China and Russia to sell arms but they’re not traditional allies in the sense that the French are nor do they really care about UN Sanctions like I thought France as a nation would." I would laugh if it wasn’t so tragic to think like this. I won’t make ad hominem attack as you said so you can read the following without passion, but with an open mind:

Did the USA care about UN before invading Irak, when the coalition had the quite entire world against? De Villepin, our foreign affairs french minister has been applauded ( yes, applauded! )in the UN assembly after his speech asking for more time to UN inspections, and it never happens in that assembly, when a country speaks, to be applauded, It’s just to underline the world agreement on that subject.

And what your president said before invading Irak ? That it was no need to inspection anymore because it was obvious ( sic! ) that Irak was lying, and if not, it was to Irak to make the proof of its innocence!!! Where are Irak’s rights here?
For Bush, that comedy has always been a game, and he said it before attacking:" the game is over!"

The worst in all that, except the thousands of death on each parts, it’s that if there was a little of respect of the UN by the small nations and if it was existing between the nations a little idea of international rights, there’s no reason to believe in it anymore: USA has destroyed it and showed that the only law it exists really between the nations, is the law of the strongest, it’s USA law ( isn’t it called imperialism??? ).
So please, don’t say anymore "the UN sanctions about Irak", but "USA’s sanction…" Thank you…
Montjoly.

ManuNice: Don’t waste your time replying to Kermit. He’s already vanished! Some people aren’t worth the time it takes to post a reply.

donerail; I was wondering when you’d get in here and help me to kick kermit’s fat-butt-from-eating-too-many-fast-food-American-hamburgers!! 🙂
I must agree with you on your post about weapons. Ya know, now that Amero-Franc is gone, and we’re all getting along with ikorrelim (no offence ikkorelim), we need some idiot in here for entertainment. Maybe we can find a way to keep kermit in here for entertainment!

ikorrelim: do you really think Bush CARES about the American veterans? These American veterans deserve the BEST health care that the USA has to offer, and they should have it FREE for LIFE. I’m not a big nationalist American (not since Bush went into Iraq, he’s embarassing), but my gosh, these veterans went to WAR for the American government and look at what the USA government does to them! treats them like garbage. My friend is a retired Marine Colonel and he has cancer. He has been in WW2, Korea, Vietnam and Desert Storm. He can tell you the stress and harassment he’s been through with the VA for medical treatment. It should be a crime to treat the veterans like this.

crc95: The Leclerc and Rafale are reported to be first rate weapons platforms. Both are somewhat obsolete compared to what Rumsfeld has in his arsenal. As far as tanks go – and it is somewhat of a neanderthal of a weapon system – the M1 Abrams is the best. The Rafale does some things well and time will tell if the Eurofighter ever gets off the ground.

SalB: I may be overly paranoid but I sensed some credentials credibility concerns from your post. I realize the teacher’s memory is getting old and feeble but I never said I was in the airlines business. I said I was in the Aviation business. There is a difference. I also said I was in the Arms business. Which I am. Now this may be a difficult concept for a liberal Republican to grasp, but I sell jet engines for a living. All sorts of jet engines. Some of them go into airliners that may take you to France. Others go into helicopters and fighter jets that are used to bomb the bejesus out of other people. And some actually go into cruise ships that appeal to the hedonistic crowd. And I am very, very, busy. And I get taxed more than I would like to be – but I suppose I shouldn’t complain – and we can reserve that topic for future debate.

LaVieilleBranche: Kermit did liven things up. He gets some style points as well. But, can you imagine anyone actually admitting in public that the read the Washington Times?

ikorrellim: I don’t know this for a fact, but supposedly the VA hospitals are rationing service – but only to those without service connected disabilities. Can you enlighten me? To me, I think the first budget priority should be to medically care for those that have served this Nation and have retired or were injured in that service.

Donerail

Geez!!! there is so much hate in this forum sometimes! is it really worth it to call each other nasty names? Is it worth your health getting so angry about stuff we can’t do nothing about? Let me make one thing clear….the world does not revolve around the US or France!
I found this other French forum and it is so different from this one!!! when I go in that forum, it makes me want to move to France even more, but this forum can be so negative sometimes. I don’t think that by calling someone names just because you don’t agree with his/her politics, or points of view…well that to me doesn’t tell me that you are any better. Nobody ever called me names when I was in France, sure they gave me a hard time about being a republican, but at the end, they respected my point of view, but it really takes adults to do that. Neither the French or Americans know what our governments are really up to, we just hear what they want us to hear…there I said my piece…man..I feel much better..hope I don’t get booted off the forum, but if I do…it’s been nice talking to you all. big hug from me to all of you!

Donerail : heard what the woman said ? She found another French forum. Let’s go there and let hell break loose !!

CRC

crc95: As Bushie’s father would say: "A kinder and gentler forum."

Myfarside: You are correct in that the world does not revolve around France or the US. It revolves around the Red Sox.

Donerail

lol donerail!! I think I struck a nerve with my last message!
BTW…how are your Red Sox doing this year, since I am a single mother, I had to work 2 jobs to keep my little family afloat and don’t have much time to watch base ball anymore. Have a great weekend!

donerail, You’re a salesman. I should have known. That explains it all.

Donerail:

Everyone was always listed in a category…service-connected, and amount of disability and also non service connected. Because of Bush’s recent policies, they are now taking everyone on a priority basis and the non service connected could soon be cut out of the VA system, especially with the influx of new Vets from Iraq that are service connected. Service connected Vets 50% or more do not have to pay a co-pay or any part of their visit. Inpatients, service and non service connected do not pay any of their medical expenses while in hospital. Co-pay has gone from 2.00 a prescription to 7.00 a prescription. General doctor visits are 15.00 and specialty visits are 50.00. I am non service connected and have Blue Cross Blue Shield with the government. However, even with VA benefits and Blue Cross Blue Shield, I still have to pay some money to the VA…I think it averages out to about 1,000 a year total that I owe after Blue Cross/Blue Shield pays. Also, as you know, the VA (which Medicare should be allowed to do) buy their medicines in bulk, therefore, are able to get a substantial savings.

About 18 months ago, all new vets applying for benefits were told there was a waiting list…we are bursting at the seams. It is possible in the future, with all the service connected vets seeking treatment that I will be asked to leave the system, since I am not service connected. This is not the contract that veterans signed…Bush is cutting the VA benefits, don’t let their half truths fool you…

Also, if one makes a certain amount of money, then the vet pays…Those at a lower rate of income do not pay…those who make more money pay, now there are those that the Bush administration are saying make TOO MUCH MONEY, therefore, they are not welcome at the VA…even though they are veterans…I guess they are being punished for coming back from serving their country and then making some money…

Donerail:

To break it down more clearly:

VA is taking no NEW PATIENTS…there is a six month to 1 year waiting list to get care.

Service connected get priority, now it is almost certain that non service connected vets will be pushed out of the system with the influx of new vets coming in.

Those vets whose income fall below a certain threshold pay nothing…those vets who make a middle-income living pay co-pay.

Service connected 50% or more pay no co-pays.

New ruling: Vets with higher than middle-income will not be allowed to enter VA…I guess Bush feels they can get their care elsewhere, even though that is not what the contract the vets signed promised.

An Iraq Vet who was on TV yesterday with Kerry for Veterans, (verteransinstitute.org). said he has been waiting six months to get health care from the VA and hasn’t receive any yet, nor received a letter as to when they will be able to assist him.

it should be a crime to treat the veterans this way. Case closed.

So can we throw Bush in jail for this? 🙂

Ikorrellim: Thank you for that information. Depressing as it was, I appreciate it. The "Means Testing" aspects of VA policy is most troubling. Personally, I think that if the Vet is going to a VA hospital – it should be HIS prerogitive – not someone at the VA. I have a service connected disability but I would probably go to my health plan/Blue Cross selection before I would select the VA. If a Veteran shows up at the doorsteps of a VA hospital – he or she should be given care or sent to a private facility (paid by the US). Period.
Donerail

crc95: I assume you went on a recon patrol to one of those other kinder and gentler France sites. What’s the good word? Donerail

LVB: It looks like you chased away Kermit. On an unrelated note, we just had our kitchen re-done and Mrs. Donerail has a nice display of French memorabilia on top of one of the new cabinets: an array consisting of various sized Maille mustard crocks, Eppoissses wooden cheese containers, and two 375cl wine bottles from a dinner at La Tour D’Argent. A neat cluster of memories. Donerail

donerail: I didn’t chase him away. He’s away now, hoping to hunt up new dirt on France to post here.

You now need a GROLE to add to your collection of stuff in the kichen and then it will be perfect

With regard to the information being "put about" in papers about who was doing what – I guess it is impossible to say much about where there is "truth".

Unfortunately, American and UK politicians have been found lying about quote a few thing in relation to the Iraq war (lying to the UN, lying t their populations, making untrue statements, etc.), that people get to the point where pro-government stuff is just given little credibility as so much in the past has proved untrue.

It is true that France has a closer relationship with many Arab countries that the US and UK. This has to do with their history rather than anything else. However, various politicians seem to try to present this in a "they are supporting terrorism" light ? which it clearly is not.

Problem comes in that US government (or pro-government organisations – including pro government news organisations) are aware that they have been proved wrong about many of their stated reasons for invading Iraq and the French attitude was proved somewhat better. Rather than admit that (or apologise) and to allow things to continue, they instead have the attitude that they wish to discredit the French. I’m sure there are many "things" that happen in France that are "disreputable" as there are many things in the US that are equally "disreputable". France has (so far) proved remarkably restrained in it?s responses to such publicity. If the US continues with such behaviour we can only hope that France continues its restrained responses.

Hello js and thanks for your posts.

This one above about France and muslim terrorists made me think of that very interesting article that was published recently in the Washington Post. Here are some excerpts. Sorry I know it’s a bit long but I think it tells a lot about how France wages its own war on terror.

French Push Limits in Fight On Terrorism
Wide Prosecutorial Powers Draw Scant Public Dissent

By Craig Whitlock Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, November 2, 2004

PARIS — In many countries of Europe, former inmates of the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have been relishing their freedom. In Spain, Denmark and Britain, recently released detainees have railed in public about their treatment at Guantanamo, winning sympathy from local politicians and newspapers. In Sweden, the government has agreed to help one Guantanamo veteran sue his American captors for damages.

Not so in France, where four prisoners from the U.S. naval base were arrested as soon as they arrived home in July, and haven’t been heard from since. Under French law, they could remain locked up for as long as three years while authorities decide whether to put them on trial — a legal limbo that their attorneys charge is not much different than what they faced at Guantanamo.

Armed with some of the strictest anti-terrorism laws and policies in Europe, the French government has aggressively targeted Islamic radicals and other people deemed a potential terrorist threat. While other Western countries debate the proper balance between security and individual rights, France has experienced scant public dissent over tactics that would be controversial, if not illegal, in the United States and some other countries.

French authorities have expelled a dozen Islamic clerics for allegedly promoting hatred or religious extremism, including a Turkish-born imam who officials said denied that Muslims were involved in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States. Since the start of the school year, the government has been enforcing a ban on wearing religious garb in school, a policy aimed largely at preventing Muslim girls from wearing veils.

French counterterrorism officials say their preemptive approach has paid off, enabling them to disrupt plots before they are carried out and to prevent radical cells from forming in the first place. They said tips from informants and close cooperation with other intelligence services led them to thwart planned attacks on the U.S. Embassy in Paris, French tourist sites on Reunion Island in the Indian Ocean and other targets.

"There is a reality today: Under the cover of religion there are individuals in our country preaching extremism and calling for violence," Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin said at a recent meeting of Islamic leaders in Paris. "It is essential to be opposed to it together and by all means."

Thomas M. Sanderson, a terrorism expert with the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, said France has combined its tough law enforcement strategy with a softer diplomatic campaign in the Middle East designed to bolster ties with Islamic countries.

"You do see France making an effort to cast itself as the friendly Western power," as distinct from the United States, he said. "When it comes to counterterrorism operations, France is hard-core. . . . But they are also very cognizant of what public diplomacy is all about."
France has embraced a law enforcement strategy that relies heavily on preemptive arrests, ethnic profiling and an efficient domestic intelligence-gathering network. French anti-terrorism prosecutors and investigators are among the most powerful in Europe, backed by laws that allow them to interrogate suspects for days without interference from defense attorneys.

The nation pursues such policies at a time when France has become well known in the world for criticizing the United States for holding suspected terrorists at Guantanamo without normal judicial protections. French politicians have also loudly protested the U.S. decision to invade Iraq, arguing that it has exacerbated tensions with the Islamic world and has increased the threat of terrorism.
Despite the political discord over Iraq, France’s intelligence and counterterrorism officials say they work closely with their American counterparts on terrorism investigations.

With the largest Muslim population in Europe, France is being closely watched in neighboring countries, many of which are tightening their own anti-terror and immigration laws. But even following the Sept. 11 attacks and the March 11 bombings of commuter trains in Madrid, other European countries have been reluctant to fully embrace the French model, part of a legal tradition from the Napoleonic era that has always given prosecutors strong powers.

Britain, for instance, typically takes years to extradite terrorism suspects to other countries and has respected the free-speech rights of imams who praise Osama bin Laden, the al Qaeda leader, and endorse holy war. Until three years ago, Germany did not ban membership in a foreign terrorist organization such as al Qaeda as long as it didn’t operate inside the country.

Last year, Christian Ganczarski, a German national and alleged al Qaeda operative, arrived in Saudi Arabia for a religious pilgrimage to Mecca. A Muslim convert who became a personal acquaintance of bin Laden, Ganczarski was suspected by French authorities of helping to organize the April 2002 bombing of a synagogue in Djerba, Tunisia, which killed 21 people.

Saudi officials prepared to deport Ganczarski back to Germany, but when German officials indicated they lacked the evidence to arrest him, Saudi authorities arranged a detour, putting him on a flight with a connection through Paris. When Ganczarski arrived at Charles de Gaulle Airport on June 2, 2003, he was detained for questioning by French police.

Seventeen months later Ganczarski remains in a French jail, under investigation for alleged conspiracy in the Tunisian attack. French investigators have claimed jurisdiction in the case because French nationals were among the casualties in the Tunisia attack.

Also last year, French counterterrorism officials tipped off the Australian government that a visiting French tourist, Willie Brigitte, was allegedly part of a terrorist cell in Sydney that was planning attacks during rugby World Cup events there. Lacking direct evidence of their own, Australian officials deported Brigitte to France in October 2003, where he was arrested. He also remains in jail, where he is subject to regular interrogations.

The French anti-terrorism judge overseeing both cases is Bruguiere, an investigating magistrate who under French law is granted great prosecutorial powers, including the ability to sign search warrants, order wiretaps and interrogate suspects.

Over the past decade, Bruguiere has ordered the arrests of more than 500 people on suspicion of "conspiracy in relation to terrorism," a broad charge that gives him leeway to lock up suspects while he carries out investigations.

"There is no equivalent anywhere else in Europe. This provision is very, very efficient for judicial rule in tackling terrorist support networks," Bruguiere said in an interview. "Fighting terrorism is like the weather. You have high pressure zones and low pressure zones. Countries that have low pressure zones" attract terrorism.

(…)

CRC

Many interesting aspects to the article. Although relevant to a different thread, the issues of Guantanamo Bay have made the reputation of America through the rest of the world pretty poor. There is widespread opinion that you cannot invade another country, capture whoever you like and then illegally hold them indefinitely without them being seem before a court. It is illegal under international law. It is immoral. Following intense diplomatic pressure, the US has released some of those inmates and in cases where there was no adequate evidence, the individuals have been released ? having lost 2 years of their lives, having been humiliated, in some cases having been tortured. You cannot hold somebody captive for more than two years without evidence.

The article makes reference to the French holding the alleged terrorists for up to 3 years without charge: "The French anti-terrorism judge overseeing both cases is Bruguiere, an investigating magistrate who under French law is granted great prosecutorial powers, including the ability to sign search warrants, order wiretaps and interrogate suspects." However, they have been taken before a court who will have been able to look at evidence presented and authorise their continued detainment ? something denied to those in Guntanamo. In fact there are several references in the article to the judicial processes involved in the French anti-terorist laws. This is critical as it ensures that the courts are maintaining involvement.

Do the rest of the world have to ask permission from the US to visit any other country. Many of those held were in Afghanistan for quite valid reasons that had nothing to do with terrorism – yet the US with all its might marched in there and held them illegally for more than two years. That is no way for a supposedly mighty power to behave.

With regards to terrorism, Americans also need to remember that for many years it was people from the US that were financing terrorists in the United Kingdom ?namely the IRA. The UK repeatedly asked the Americans to stop this funding. However, the "Irish vote" was important to the US politicians so no actions were taken.

For a nation to be mighty it needs to behave responsibly. There is more to being a great nation than to be able to march into any other country you chose with guns and bombs. Europe realises this and it may be this that contributes to the gulf between the two continents,

crc95: That was a very interesting article. It shows, yet again, how foolish America looks in the eyes of the rest of the world. And it shows, again, how fortunate you are to have such a civilized approach to things. That said, we Americans are a rambunctuous bunch – and we really mean well. Although we have our inconsistencies, we really do value freedom – even though we may not be as free as we think we are. We do value our freedoms and we love to make and consume things. I don’t know if it would make a difference if we reeled in Israel a bit. Basically, Israel just wants to exist. I don’t know what the Arabs want. We do seem to be giving them a lot of money for their oil.

js: I guess the anger that we Americans have with the terrorists is due to the fact that we haven’t experienced a lot of it ourselves over the years. We generally think of ourselves as the good guys and why would anyone want to harm us? Having studied Irish history, I can understand their anger towards the crown. If I was a Jew, I could understand their anger towards Germany and those other countries (including the USA) who watched as they were being exterminated. I think what really disturbs us is the joy they seem to get from killing others. I don’t know if its a religious thing with them, but I do know that 3,000 innocent people died. These are not easy problems for which there are easy answers. At the end of the day, I would not want to side with the likes of Stalin, Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Idi Amin and others that would now include Osama Bin Ladin. As bad as Bush, Chirac, Sharon, and others may be – they are not in the same class as those former folks. You would think we would be able to work it out. Donerail

crc95, Interesting article. I am more comfortable with the American "You are innocent until proven guilty" than the French "You are guilty until proven innocent" because it protects the genuinely innocent. Of course, as has been pointed out, it is far more likely that the guilty will be arrested so the French position is probably more practical.

We have had terrorism here and most of it is homegrown nuts who have a grudge against either a person, a corporation or the government. We’ve also been attacked by terrorists outside of our country, but this attack right in the middle of NYC on national tv really galvanized the country.

The odd thing is that the entire world was completely sympathetic and expressed genuine sorrow about the attack. It is the best feeling the US has engendered in years. However, with Bush at the helm, that internation good feeling turned to disgust and acrimony very quickly . . . and understandably.

It amazes me that the recent election turned out the way it did in light of the press finally beginning to wake up and air the unpleasant facts of the last few years. I think people are still angry about the attack and they are very frightened so they perceive Bush as a strong man (the cowboy complex) who will protect them. In this case, the media has lost a certain amount of control.

SalB : yes, I remember what ‘capital de sympathie’, as we say here, America got on 9/11. I remember Chirac commanded a 3 minute moment of silence in every French administrations, and I clearly remember doing it standing in some underground corridor of the Lyon métro !

And now, what a waste ! Alas, not the only one.

CRC

SalB: "I am more comfortable with the American "You are innocent until proven guilty"". I was not aware that all those held for many years (now) in Guantanamo Bay had been found guilty (or does the US have a different mechanism to find people guilty). The world (outside the US anyway) is quite horrified about this situation. People do not want to see terrorists go free, but the Guantanamo situation is effectively kidnapping and is against international law.

The 9/11 attack was horrific and I doubt anybody would suggest anything different. However, it should be remembered the Mr. Bin Laden was actually trained by the CIA. At a time when the US did not like Russia in Afghanistan, a Mr. Bin Laden (and his many friends) were in Afghanistan and were prepared to fight the Russians. They were thus trained and armed by the CIA as at that time the US felt this was in their interest.

Although this and a few other original questions were posted some time ago, the rift continues. It was the US and UK that created the rift and although the UK (or rather a Mr. Blair) has made vague efforts to re-establish relationships with France, Mr. Blair?s approach is more along the lines "We’ve done a great thing and you French should now return to being our friends". The US politicians seem to have no interest in establishing friendly relations with either France nor the UN.

Other than one US politician, most accept that there is no relationship between Saddam/Iraq and Mr. Bin Laden. The relationship was "manufactured to help justify a war". Such dubious and flawed information and intelligence seems to have been used quite a lot through the entire sorry episode and nobody (including in the UK) has accounted as to why it was used.

I believe there used to be a US "Presidential Saying" "The buck stops here". These days is seems more "If you cannot prove without doubt that I was entirely and personally directly responsible then I’m off the hook".

js: We could also talk about Neville Chamberlain if you want to rehash history a little bit more. Yes, Bush and the Right Wing screwed up. But what do we do now? Donerail

donerail: We let our opinions be known to our senators and congressmen. We prepare for Bush’s future wars with Iran and Syria.

Pray that the Chimp doesn’t start WW3

LVB: Solidarity. Donerail

js wrote, "I was not aware that all those held for many years (now) in Guantanamo Bay had been found guilty (or does the US have a different mechanism to find people guilty)."

I did not say anyone at Guantanamo had been found guilty. I think the situation is reprehensible also. I said "they are presumed innocent until they have been proven guilty." To my knowledge, they haven’t even been charged yet; hence, they are presumed innocent. Of course, this makes their treatment even more problematic.

We are supposed to have a speedy trial by a jury of our peers too, but that doesn’t happen as often as it should. The Guantanamo prisoners should be presumed innocent, should be tried and should be able to contact lawyers. Unfortunately, the government has been evading prisoner civil rights (and the civil rights of many of its own citizens) by screaming "terrorism" as loudly as possible. The press is finally beginning to notice but 51% of the American people don’t seem to care since Mr. Bush was reelected.

I have no idea how they have managed to hold these people for so long without charging or trying them. I also have no idea why someone hasn’t started an outcry to do something. Even those who believe they are guilty should want them tried so they can be punished. Both sides seem to be effectively ignoring the entire situation.

In the UK there is quite an outcry. Also, through the rest of the world there is something of an ?outcry? certainly by the human rights organisations, but as I live in France I cannot comment on how extensive this ?public attitude is? ? only in the UK.

Certainly, the UK considers it quite reprehensible, particularly following the stories told by those released about their treatment.

Whilst I have been commenting of US actions here, other countries are certainly far from perfect. It was fairly recently that a peaceful protect outside an Arms Fair in the UK was stopped by invoking anti-terrorism laws. It was the standard peaceful protest one would expect outside an Arms Fair (where a country is trying to sell weapons to a rage of currently friendly countries). Banners and shouting only. Everybody knew there was no security risk, but the police realised that by invoking anti-terrorism laws, they could arrest the protestors, hold them for the duration of the Arms Fair without needing to charge them and then release them. Everybody knew it was an abuse of rights, but the anti-terrorist laws allowed it to happen quite legally. All the police have to do is say ?terrorist? and they can do pretty well what they want (legally).

By the way, none of my comments are intended as personal criticism. When I quote somebody, it is intended to identify the point raised that I may be adding my opinion to. I welcome differing opinions as I think the world would be very dull if everybody spent all their time agreeing with everybody. It is only through being open to different opinions that our own attitudes can develop.

js: I guess you have detected that SalB is a tad defensive. Donerail

A question was raised about my post and I attempted to clarify. Clarification is not defensiveness.

You may count me out of further discussions. It doesn’t matter what I say, I’m always accused of being defensive. Perhaps it is because I need to be defensive with donerail on the forum. Too bad he didn’t leave when he made his "last" post about seven different times. He understands "last" about as well as he understands "defensive."

You don’t need to put any further comments about my defensiveness because I’m not going to read your remarks.

I felt that nobody was being defensive and I certainly did not intend to give such an impression. My last comment was more that I have a suspicion that the press in different countries presents a different image as to current world opinion. I’m sure that is the case with the UK press and I suspected that it might be possible that the US press may not have been presenting broad opinion from other countries in a representative manner.

I also felt that many of my comments were critical of the US government actions and I wished to make that point that other governments are moving along the same lines. The "cry terrorism and you can do what you want" attitude. Certainly the UK is following the same path, though no yet quite a strongly.

Certainly during the run-up to the war, UK press was also reporting on what the US press were saying about the UK’s support for the war. Difficulty with the press is that you cannot tell how accurate or representative their reporting actually is. However, in the run-up to the Iraq war, the impression in the UK was that the US press were reporting that the UK was supporting Mr. Bush. It appeared (to us in the UK), that the US press did not give much (any ?) coverage to the largest public protests ever held in the UK (and across Europe), protesting about the war. We (in the UK) had the impression that the US press was reporting general support, whereas the majority of UK/Europe was not supporting their governments who were supporting the US. Whilst the British Parliament did (just) vote to support the war, that vote was based on untrue information presented by Mr. Blair. There is currently a movement to impeach Mr. Blair (on legal reasons) for lying to the Houses of Parliament (http://www.impeachblair.net/). Many of those MPs who voted in support for the war now say that, had they known the true facts they would not have supported the war.

To my mind, a forum like this (on such subjects) is not about being defensive or offensive, but rather exchange of ideas and information. Where participants are based in different countries this can provide a unique perspective. If somebody is offensive (including myself), there is nothing wrong with others being defensive (though I did not read such attitudes here).

js: I guess you can see from SalB’s last post what I was referring to with regard to her defensiveness. It is too bad that SalB feels the way she does. She seems to be very knowledgeable and certainly well traveled with regard to France. As I’m sure you can appreciate, this is an internet forum with lots of diverse subject matter and lots of diverse people to go along with it. In my view, our banter is entertainment of a sort and should not be either boring or taken too, too seriously. It seems, to me anyway, whenever you try to point something out or make some kind of a point or to disagree with SalB, even in jest, she goes into that ‘you misunderstood me’ mode. If she is not overly defensive, then I guess she just has a tendency to whine a lot.

With regard to the outcries over Iraq in the UK I agree with you. I live in a very "Blue" state (Massachusetts) and there was some – but not much – coverage of the folks in the UK that disagreed with Tony Blair over Iraq. Some of the reason that our media did not shed more light on this was out of fear of the GWB folks and the sizable percent (I guess 51%) of the people who were not going to listen anyway. I think the media probably felt they would be criticized as "unpatriotic." Anyone else who was critical of Bush was looked upon in that fashion. We have these right wing talk radio and tv shows that pound away like that every evening. You are right about the death penalty as well. It is clearly uncivilized. I don?t think religion has much to do with it any more, either. The USA can improve in so many ways and I feel bad that the rest of the world has to put up with our shortcomings. In reality, people on both sides of these issues had some interesting arguments. I think eventually we would have had to take Saddam Hussein off the board. It appears the US wanted a "friendly face" in the Mid-East other than Israel that could be used to leverage states like Syria and Iran. The more that Bush delayed, the greater the risk that Hussein would be actually able to clean up his act in the eyes of the world. That would have probably strengthened Europe too much in the eyes of our Right Wing. In any event, here we are and we have to figure a way out of this. Donerail

Trouble is that all these political games being played by politicians are killing people. I think it is time that politicians stopped playing their silly games, stopped trying to just stay in power, stopped working for their already very financially rich friends in business and got on with the point of the democratic political system, government by the people for the people. The democratic system does this through representatives (like Mr. Bush, Mr. Blair, etc.). It may all be one big game to them but they are having severe impacts on peoples lives (including killing people).

I would suggest that the western world does not actually have democratic government. When you get one vote every 4 or 5 years and that vote is subject to all sorts of abuse, system failures (computer failures, electoral registration failures, etc.), is swayed through intensive PR campaigns and untruths. This is not government by the people (if that is what democracy is). Maybe democracy is the nation electing a dictator for 4 (or 5 years).

May be a naïve opinion about politics but it should all be about the lives of people.

js:

I could not agree with you more. Everything you said in your latest post…could have come from my very lips…fingers…

You may find this interesting…Until January, 2004, I would have fought anybody who said anything against Bush and his administration…some on this forum can attest to my attitude. (ignorance is bliss, thus Bush was elected again.) I decided that I was going to vote this year (I am ashamed to say, first time), and therefore, I needed to know the issues.

After becoming a political junkie during the campaign…I find that everything that you say is true about our democracy…if we can call it that…

However, I am still an American…and of course, we are all proud, sometimes too self-assured, rude, etc. Comes from our background, the way we started this country, our forefathers, our power (be it used for good or bad) and the things that we have accomplished in our very short (according to other countries) life…

However, from what I have heard, seen, read…I can’t really say that we have a democracy…Bush should never have been in office the first time, must less this time…The lies they told to get people to vote for them is mindbogging (that people would believe them) and disgusting…I can’t stand this administration and cannot wait until this four year period is over with…However, rest assured…with their cockiness, etc. this administration is in for a lot of political scandals, corruption charges, etc…By the time they finally leave in four years…the Republican’s are not going to be holding their heads as high now and with such self-assuredness…

However, kudo’s to you…you hit the bulleye in all that you said and believe…

ikorrellim: I can’t believe that we are in total agreement with each other. I really respect you for what you have done. Hang on, in a few years the country will come to its senses. Donerail

donerail: I don’t know…people don’t change that much, and it’s entirely possible that another neoconservative chickenhawk will run the White House again…It depends on how Bush manipulates the media, public opinion and the Middle East…Do you really think that we cannot get Osama? Think of it..If Osama is caught, then the game is over for Bush. He needed the "threat" of Osama out there to get re-elected. Now that he won the election, do you really think he’ll get Osama? The son of his oil investors? I don’t think so….Blood and money are thicker than water, as the saying goes (I added the money part)….

I’m a diehard Republican who voted Kerry because I’m afraid of what another 4 years of the Bush team will bring…I cannot see myself voting for the Bush successor in 4 years…

Bush will be going into Syria and Iran. He will find an "excuse" and start more wars. Mark my words on this.

LVB: I presume you have changed your political affiliation from Rep to Dem. At least I hope you have. Donerail

Greetings from Quebec City!

The apartment here has internet connections, as it is raining outside, I decided to drop on in and post a greetings!

I am using a French PC, so pardon in advnce any typing errors.

The weather has been freezing cold, which I love. I went twice to the Vieux Marche du Quebec, which is a melange of delicious Quebecois foods prepared from artisanal producers. Tonight was a dinner of wild salmon with tomatoes and red pepper cooked with hydromel and fresh persil.

The artisan sausages are to die for. they are made fresh and they produce MANY varieties.

The cassis! The creme de cassis is out of this world here, it is made by small growers. I have had creme de cassis and mure from the Burgundy region, but NOTHING compares to the stuff produced locally in Quebec. I will be bringing back a few bottles of locally produced wines and creme de cassis. mmmmmmmmmmmmm……..

There is a big movement up here for locally grown or produced foods. Jose Bove would be proud of the Quebecois. They have kept their French traditions but are still a modern people.

Photos of the theater productions, street fairs, markets, etc. will be online next week for all to see and enjoy.

Donerail: I did not drive up here. I took an express jet. It is a one hour flight from Newark Airport for me. While here I stocked up on warm gloves, sweaters, French music CD, etc. The SAQ is on strike, so I couldn not get French wine easily. It is another reason to drink locally produced wines, hydromels, etc…. mmmmmmmmmmmmm )

crc: the Quebecois language is VERY easy for me to understand. Their accent is a little bizarre, but so what? I speak French and they are very nice to me

Well, it is almost the New Year, so time to open a bottle of French champagne.

Happy new Year to all French loving peoples everywhere!!!! (kfouler5 is not included in this greeting)

La Vieille Branche

LVB: Good thing that you took the plane to QC. It was quite a snowstorm that Monday. Someone told me that you can pick up good French artisnal cheeses that we can’t get here. Is that true? Donerail

donerail: Yes, you can get French artisinal cheeses made in Quebec! The most unusual I"ve seen is a type of harder, low fat cheese that is meant to be roasted (roti). It is uniquely Quebecois. It doesn’t melt when cooked. I had several decent pieces for degustation, and I found it quite delicious.

At the Quebec market, they had FREE unlimited tasting (degustation) and you can be sure I degusted A LOT In fact, I had a nice lunch based on all the individual tastings here and there. The Quebecois are French first, Canadian second. Thus, all their foods are French based. I brought back foie gras de Perigord, made in Quebec, but using Perigord recipies. I also brought back other Quebecois meats and delices. It’s not so illegal to bring back Quebecois meats, because they are made/grown in Canada. It would be a different situation should they have been made in France. However, I know well how to hide such products in my suitcase, in certain angles that defy the x-ray machines

I also brought back maple sugar and maple butter. I brought back 7 bottles of locally produced creme de cassis, eau de vie, hydromel and fruit wines. Of course I tasted them all before i decided to buy them

One of the best meals I had started out with a terrine of rabbit and noisettes, then a vegetable soup, then a Lac St.Jean meat pie with a side of caribou meat, then a piece of maple sugar pie. The beverage of choice was a nice Quebecois red wine, a half liter. The portions were huge, the food was delicious and it took 3 hours to consume all of that. However, it was worth every excess calorie!

Because many places are closed on New Years Eve and New Years Day, I stocked up on fresh sausages and fish, to cook dinner for these 2 days. I made an Alsacian choucroute using freshly made Quebecois sausages. The sausages impart a sweetness to the choucroute that is missing from the traditional Alsacian choucroute (my cousins live in Alsace).

Of course, my French boyfriend was with me, as he LOVES Quebec(he’s Parisien, so too bad donerail, LOL ) and his declaration that something was as good as France or better meant a lot to me. When a Frenchman can declare that the Quebecois tradition is delicious, then you KNOW it’s ok

yes, you all know by now that I LOVE French culture! Miam, Miam!

I don’t know if he ever visits this site, but i would
like to thank Kermit for providing that excellent link
on one of his posts.