Cultural differences

jissou, That is a very interesting observation. I guess it depends on your work. Our oldest daughter is an engineer in this country (USA) and she arrives at work between 6 and 7 AM and is usually still there at 6 or 7 PM, often working on weekends too. America is very proud of its productivity so Americans are expected to be as productive as possible, whether it is during working hours or otherwise. I think it might depend on how much work there is in your field and what the basic philosophy of your company is, rather than the country where the firm is located.

Cultural differences . . . hmmm . . . The cultural difference most noticed by us is restaurant service and shopping behavior. After we get home from France and eat in an American restaurant for the first time, we are always incredibly annoyed by our server coming over and announcing, "Hi, I’m Jordan. I’ll be your server tonight." After Jordan starts "a relationship du jour" with us and takes our order, he lurks waiting until we have our mouths full and immediately runs to the table and asks, "Is everything okay?" Now, with your mouth full, what are you supposed to do? In France, the assumption is that (a) your waiter is there to see that you get the meal you want, not become your friend for the evening and (b) that unless you complain, the food is fine. If there is a problem, the French waiter assumes you have enough sense to discuss the matter with him. We have had the occasional problem and it was quickly and cheerfully rectified in France.

While shopping in France, I find it pleasant to be greeted by the proprietor (or clerk) as I walk in the door. I know they are aware of my presence. If I want help, I get help, not the "big sell." When I leave the store, usually everyone in the store bids me au revoir. It seems more like a community. We’ve noticed this "bon jour" and "au revoir" in most small towns in stores and restaurants and we love it. No one tries to force themselves on you, but they acknowledge the fact that you are a presence in their community. It is a very understated friendliness . . . not pushy, just nice.

We are vastly amused by the eclectic choice of music on French radio stations. Here a station is stuck in one mode, i.e., country, rock, jazz, etc. There you can hear everything from classical to rock on the same station. I won’t say we particularly enjoy it, but we do think it’s nice to have everyone exposed to a variety of music. We listen to strictly classical and find the others rather monotonous, but in principal at least, we think it’s better to have a variety. At least in France when something comes on we don’t like, we can turn it off or take our chance on another station! It kind of removes the stigma of liking classical music. You are free to enjoy different kinds of music and it’s okay. Here, you’re a nerd if you listen to classical and most people aren’t even exposed to it because they don’t hear it on "their" radio station.

We love not being hurried through a meal in France. Here we always feel that a line of people are waiting for our table and we should get on with it. The waiters grab your plates before you are finished and conversation over coffee is not encouraged. The bill comes with the coffee and the insinuation is that it’s time to go. Relaxing and chatting after dinner (and eating the dinner in an unhurried manner) are very important to us.

I have no idea if this is all in my mind or not, but we’ve been to France many times and it seems pretty consistent across the country.

Jissou: I don’t think work hours are a cultural thing related to a particular country. I think work hours are a factor of the company’s reward and compensation system. Long hours for the sake of long hours will eventually produce shallow performers who lack creative skills. The business will eventually be put at risk. Good performers deliver good results and in a competitive environment, it is performance that counts. Long hours for the sake of long hours also yield an environment that is conducive to attracting labor unions. (Sorry, SalB, but labor unions and productivity generally are not compatible. I probably will set off a fire storm with that comment.) Donerail

Salb, Donerail:
I did not mean to compare the number of hours we work here or there but a general attitude that I did not seem to find here.
Maybe it is more result oriented…
I also work long hours, travel quite a lot, etc…but if my schedule is free and of course I did my time then I go home.
I know it might not be a perfect example of a difference.
I agree about the restaurant but sometimes, especially when you need something at the table, it is good that the waiter comes without having to call for service.
Now at home (and if my wife reads this, please no offense), when we have her familly over, it is a race. We sit, eat the appetizer then the main dish comes in then dessert…as soon as dessert is done, it is like a well oiled machine that start…everybody brings everything back to the kitchen and in 10 minutes it’s like we did not eat…maybe I exagerate a little but this is something that I have trouble adjusting to. I am not talking about everyday meals but when we have guests.The funny part is that I use to dislike those long lunches when I was a kid in France.

Jissou.

I noticed a big difference in lunch hours as well. Businesses in France often take a two hour lunch, whereas in the US lunches are no more than an hour; mine is 45 minutes. I don’t have time for a leisurely lunch, however, while vacationing in France I did enjoy the laid back restaurant atmosphere. Maybe that is why the French also work later hours? I do agree that it depends on the company that you work for. Private agencies often work later than government agencies in both countries.

BATHROOMS! Many homes in France have a seperate room for the toilet
with basin and shower in another. Its not just the older homes, i was recently in a new house built this way. I am told it is a cultural thing, and they are slowly moving towards the "English" system.
Sure makes it hard to wash your hands!
Of course, the biggerst cultural difference is humor. the french just don’t seem to laugh much. Jissou, maybe you can comment on this
as you must notice the differences in U.S./French humor.
I was amazed to read recently that there wasn’t even a word in French
for "humor" until sometime after the french Revolution.

Maxpower: In fact that is a very interesting comment. I think that I’d rather have a toilet and a bathroom so that the rest of the family can use the bathroom when you are doing your business or not have to support the trace of it.
Most places do have a sink in the toilet except with older apartments.
Newer homes in France have both toilet in and out of the bathroom…who knows what the trend is.
I don’t quite understand why French poeple would laugh more or less than anybody else…I’d be interested to know how you came to that conclusion. Now the kind of humor might be different but again you must be a true native to understand it all. When I first moved here, I went to see a comic show off braodway and I might have been the only one not laughing…because I am French? Well you might think that but no, it’s because I could not understand it at that time.

I did not mean any offense on the humor issue, its always tough when speaking in broad terms. I just think that in gerneal, the French
philosophy is more serious, sober and reserved as opposed to U.S.
being relaxed, informal and peppered with humor. Look at SalB’s
dining experience. French waiters are formal and efficent but not particularily likable. American waiters are relaxed and informal,
likable. This can definitly be a plus especially at Hooters.
I must admit though that french formality sure does make some good food.

No offense was done, we are just discussing… I think the seriousness that you might find in some cases at first glance is the realtion of poeple with a stranger (more in Big cities). There are bid differences between the north and the south of France.
The northern poeple might appear serious or rude first but after you know them they are kind and no more serious than anybody else would.
In the south, poeple are more welcoming at first glance but you won’t find any long term relationship there.
When I first leaved in Philly, poeple were talking to me in the street and because of the accent always making nice conversation…If I meet the same person the next day at the same place he might not talk to me or remember me. I could not figure it out.

maxpower, Referring to American waiters, I said "we were incredibly annoyed." How do you translate that into "American waiters are more likeable?" I find French waiters much more likeable because they do not interrupt our conversation or our meal. I find the phony "Is everything okay?" while you have your mouth full and can’t answer by American waiters very unlikeable. They don’t care if it’s okay or not; they have been told to ask so they do, usually at the least useful moment. We’ve had a couple problems with meals in France, called the waiter and were immediately (and cheerfully) taken care of in a most likeable manner. We’ve had good service in the US too, but we prefer the customs in France. It’s less intrusive to us. If you like Hooters, I’m sure you won’t agree. Vive la difference!

Some us find the attitude you call "relaxed and informal" highly offensive and intrusive. A waiter is a professional providing a service. Why in the world should he be relaxed and informal? He should be alert and professional. A little more formality would do our country a lot of good, IMHO.

As far as humour, we’ve found the French to have a marvelous sense of humour. Even if you have trouble with the language, there is always that little sparkle in the eye that gives it away. My husband has a very dry (somewhat British) sense of humour and he always gets a laugh out of people we deal with in France. I’ll admit they don’t try to make a joke out of everything, but I think that’s a good thing. I get tired of everything being turned into a joke. Life isn’t a joke and shouldn’t be treated as such. You can be pleasant without being overly familiar and/or slapstick.

Bathrooms: In California all the new houses have separate little rooms for the toilet. It does allow the rest of the bathroom to be used by others while maintaining a sense of privacy. I’m not sure where this originated but it makes a lot of sense. When we have a house full of company, I often wish we had that arrangement. I don’t mind washing my hands with someone else, but other bathroom things require privacy (at least to me, they do.)

I agree with jissou that cities are often more formal than small towns. I suspect this is true nearly anywhere and it makes perfect sense. In small towns, it pays to be friendly because you’ll probably meet the person again soon. In a city, you may never see the person again.

Maxpower/Jissiou/SalB: The French have a superior bathroom concept. Our’s are not even remotely comparable. The bath/shower hardware are so superior. The French waitstaff are vastly superior to what we have here. SalB has eloguently stated the shallowness of US service – or total lack thereof. But, I think we are learning. Slowly, but we are learning. Donerail

Touche!

Jissou Suprised to here Americans ignored you after hearing your
accent. I always thought most Americans To be intrigued by any
forign accent, I know I am. I once worked with a fellow with an
English accent and he got lots of attention, mostly from women.
Lucky him. In France, I have noticed they HATE hearing their language
filtered thru an accent (I unfortunatly have a NY accent). After speaking a little French I am often told to "please , speak English".
I guess they know I am American by my NY Mets cap. But let this
be a tip to any newbies going to France, make an effert to speak
French, but unless you can master the accent, let them struggle
with English. Its seem to make everyone happy. I even know one Frenchman who will not go back to Montreal because he hated hearing his language butchered.

maxpower, The language thing is funny. We both speak some French but we have a definite American accent, especially my husband. Sometimes I can’t even understand his French. He is so utterly understated, polite and charming, though, that it never seems to bother anyone.

We always start a conversation (communication) in French and then let them decide which language to use. If we feel fairly comfortable and they switch to English, we’ll persist in French for a while and see if they will go with us. Often they will, especially outside of Paris.

We’ve had some fun experiences. On our very first trip to France when our French was extremely rudimentary, we were in Paris and stopped for lunch in a little café in the Latin Quarter. We spoke French (sort of) and the waitress indulged us for a while. Finally, she very politely explained we were pronouncing a particular word incorrectly and then she corrected us. As if to reinforce her expertise, she explained, "I’m from the Loire and we have the purest French there." We acceded and accepted her pronunciation. We asked her a lot of pronunciation questions and she cheerfully answered as best she could. I think she enjoyed being an expert!

Another time, again on our first trip, we struggled all week with a very nice young waiter near Poitier. We ate dinner with a dictionary on the table and managed to communicate with the young man and he tried so hard to understand us that we were impressed with his persistence. About the last day we reached an impasse. I wanted to say something that simply was not in our Larrouse and finally, the young waiter spoke to me in very clear and correct English. Cheerfully, I said that was exactly what I meant and he was off to take care of whatever the problem happened to be. Later when he came back speaking French, I asked him why he always spoke French when his English was obviously excellent and we, equally obviously, were truly struggling. His answer was simple . . . "English is very difficult for me." Believe me, I could relate!!

We have discovered that when we get way out in the boonies, often people simply do not speak English. If they know a few words, they use them just to be helpful, but it’s a struggle. I suspect many times when Americans run into someone who "won’t" speak English, it’s because they really can’t do it with any level of comfort. Let’s face it, how often could you go into MacDonalds or Denny’s in this country and speak French to a waitress . . . or a Motel 6 in Topeka and find a manager who speaks French. It’s really not fair to expect everyone in France to speak English. It’s not their language and it’s not their responsibility.

In fairness to both our countries, we’ve noticed over the years that more and more French people are attempting to speak English when necessary and we have also noticed that more and more American tourist sites are hiring multilingual staff. I think that’s a big step forward in the right direction for all concerned.

Sal B I agree it isn’t fair to expect all French to speak English
but the reality is that many of them DO.It might be a defense mechanism that frees them from listening to Americans like me. They might not like itbut they know (especially the young) that it is important to know.Next summer we will have a 19 year old French girl coming to stay 6 months just to learn "American" English. Her term not mine.
Thats another interesting thing about France, the young people can’t
get enough American pop culture.There doesn’t seem to be much "French" in their own contemporary culture. Can anyone give me some examples of French pop culture, either in france or U.S. Other than the bikini,I can’t think of anything. French beaches, I LOVE
French beaches.

The French have a huge pop culture. We’re in our 60s and not much into pop culture, but some things you just can’t miss are

French movies are absolutely wonderful and finally some of them are again coming to the States.

They have lots of their own pop singers and I have no idea if they are popular here or not because I avoid all such singing. I don’t care whose culture it is; it’s not mine.

How about French fashion and French magazines . . . I know Elle and Marie Claire are readily available here. We can get quite a few others, including the French version of Vogue.

French kids are seriously into roller blades too. They actually close some of the Paris streets on Sundays for a huge roller blade runabout. In supermarkets, we’ve seen kids on roller blades running for price checks, etc. Fortunately their aisles are wider than ours!

We love the French beaches that are sandy, but the rocky ones are for the birds . . . literally!

Yes, that movie that was out last year, I think it was called Natalie
or some girls name was a pretty big hit over here. There is a scene
it that movie whre an old guy takes such delite in roasting a chicken
and then breaking it apart to get the litte "pearls" of meat of
the backbone. there is just something so french about that scene.
Pop culture is important because lets face it todays pop culture is
tomorrows culture. Look at Shakespeare or Charle Dickens. The French,
as individuals and thru the government are very worried about this
trend.

You must be referring to the movie Emilie.

The French government (and most other governments) should be worried about the influx of American pop culture. They are going to lose their national identity if they let Hollyweed take over.

At least I haven’t yet seen a Walmart in France . . . which is not to say that they don’t exist, just that I haven’t yet seen one. I sincerely hope I never do!! It’s fun to go into the crazy big French hypermarchés and hardware stores. They’re just enough different that it’s a shopping experience.

Maxpower: I think most poeple like to see foreigner speak with an accent. My family loves when my wife speaks french and are very happy that she makes the effort.
I always meet Americans that loved Paris but wonder why all french poeple don’t speak english…well english is just not the native language of France…that’s it.
However, France is not known for learning other languages very well compare to other european countries.
But, I was surprise during our honeymoon to see that many poeple speak english in the countryside.
I don’t think you can assimilate french canadian and Poeple from France. There is a different attitude because of the relation between Quebec and the rest of Canada. I was on Air Canada and in the raw in front of me there was this gentleman who spoke english very well with other poeple in the plane. However, he would not say one english word to the stewart that obviously had trouble speaking french. I found it very surprising.
Now regarding the pop culuture, even if the american culture is very present not only in France but all over Europe, it does not mean that nothing else exists…music, movies, art, fashion, cosmetics…it is just not obvious if you don’t live in France.
Salb, I have never seen Walmart in France but the trend is going for bigger and bigger supermarket…hopefully I am just mistaking.

Very interesting to read your comments. I haven’t quite had the same
experiance with language in france, but must say I do find more and more English being spoken there. especially by people in the service
industries, which makes sense.I have heard it said that the French
learn English out of necessity while Americans learn French out
of passion.
Your comments on Canada, what is the French opinion of the Quebec/
Canadian rift. I always thought it was Charle DeGaulles famous
speech in late 50’s or early ’60’s that helped inspire the seperation
movement.

You are right about the fact that learning English in France is more a necessity than a passion.
Regarding Canada, I have never been in the french speaking part of the country and it would be difficult for me to really understand it all. I like the fact that we share the same language with its funny differences. There are few places not completely identical but very similar. Corsica or "Le pays Basque" are regions that want to claim some kind of independance that would be impossible to obtain in real life mostly for economical reasons.
My family and I might go to Montreal to visit some friend this summer. Maybe I will have a better opinion of it after the trip.

Hi All!

what an interesting subject! It could even be divided in several sub-subjects (?): i.e. Learning English/Music in France/Enjoying your meal/American cultural invasion… Maybe we’ll go that route if the discussion becomes too difficult to follow, as there are mini-threads being interwoven.

The movie you are refering to is called Amelie, and it was a big hit in France, and what you might call a ‘succes d’estime’ in the US. It did pretty well all over the world. For a French movie, that is.

The cultural differences between the 2 countries are an unending and incredibly rich topic of conversation. There is no doubt, SalB, that American pop culture is alive and well in France and that it sometimes feels as if the French character might disappear under the combined weight of Hollywood and the Golden Arches.

But the French character is strong and the culture rich enough to adapt itself to this sea of change. The radio,as you so aptly note, is a good example. Paris is one of the foremost melting pot cities in the World, and the majority of those being melted into the pot are not Americans.

The American pop culture will no doubt change France in a very deep way (but it changes the whole world). One of the most subtle way it may improve life is that it places an emphasis on service that was somewhat missing in France, the feeling of community notwidtanding.

Also the French are very good in integrating foreign culture into the French culture, and make the result somewhat more subtler, finer, sometimes even better. Music is a good example, cuisine is another one.

France is really at an important juncture, because it has to keep its cultural richness and adapt to a fast-changing world, something it is loath to do. But it will happen, inevitably, and we would not be surprised that the result is something entirely different from what exists today. The French revere the ‘Art deVivre’ something that is keenly absent from the American way of life. The result of the 2 will be fascinating. Keep tuned!

FC

Francecom: how eloquently written!

I’ve heard that Jean-Pierre Jeunet is making another movie that hopefully promises to be as cheerful, exquisite and uplifting as Amelie Poulain. Until It is finished, you can download Amelie Poulain music on Kazaa…shhhh…

For the musicians among us, you should be able to order the sheet music (piano only) of Amelie. It’s a suite of 6 pieces for piano from Yann Tiersen.

What about the E.U., do the French see it as another threat to their
culture? I mean one of the advantages of the E.U. is it allows people to move around more, country to country. If jobs are suddenly
available in France, Poles or Romanians could move in to help
out. This is good for the economy but what of the cultural issue.
I have noticed in the south of France, locals are getting upset
with all the Brits are buying up houses. Some small towns are deserted in the winter because the "invaders" are only around in the summer. I would assume that these people truly love French culture,
but the concern is they don’t provide for a full time economy and
that eventully they will miss and want things from back home.
You know, things like mashy peas,warm beer and assorted boiled meats.

I suspect the EU is both a cultural threat and an economic necessity. It’s the only way they can compete in the current world market. It’s pretty obvious that Chirac has been trying desperately to gain more control in the EU.

When you think about the history of Europe, it is positively amazing how far they have come in our lifetime. The idea of a European Union fifty years ago would have been laughable, yet here it is and trouncing the dollar to boot!

The employment situation will largely determine attitudes when the border crossing starts to impinge on local jobs. We’ve already had to deal with that and it’s a sticky issue.

I think much of the complaint against the British buying up houses in southern France is that it drives up prices. Of course, the British are buying in France because they can’t afford to retire in Britain. When Britain switches to the euro, which it will have to do eventually, that may take care of itself. I suspect mushy peas will never become a popular item in Provence!!!!!!!!!! and why drink warm beer when you have all that wonderful wine?!

SalB: Thank you for saying it honestly, the way it is

mushy peas and warm beer?????????????????? YUCK!!!!!!!!!!!

Long live FRENCH FOOD!

I think the EU has been great. It has forced people to think and act in economic terms. And that is good. Europe seems concerned with investing in their infrastructure. That rewards the economy and the taxpayers have something to show for it at the end of the day. In the USA, it doesn’t seem to bother us that we pound 25-35% of our GDP down the Pentagon rathole. And how we squander our natural resources. I wish I had a second home in LaFrance. Unfortunately, I can’t afford it and I thought I earned a pretty good living. Oh well, this is Airshow season and I can go see my hard earned taxdollars at work. The Euro was pretty cool a couple of years ago when it was worth about a dollar. I am amazed at how well the French adapted to it. It took a decade for us to develop interstate acceptance of EZ-Pass for tolls. Donerail

Sal B I think the idea of a unified europe 50 years ago was
quite plausible. Now 100 years, I would agree. But after WWII
I think they had FINALLY had enough war and were motivated to
do something about it. An interesting thing, though not very
signifigant today, is that the E.U. can trace its roots to
a 1942 agreement between Germany’s armaments minester, Albert
Speer and French (Vichy) industrials. The arrangment was mutually
benifical even after the war and became the Iron and Coal
Community.
Also, economics is not an exact sience, but one of the reasons
the euro is so high is the disparity in American economy vs.
Europes. Probably also why most sitting european governments
lost in recent elections.

I don’t beleive that the EU is a threat for individual cultures in Europe. Economicoly, it has pluses and minuses.
Culture variations already exists between different regions of France.
It is what makes it enjoyeable and why poeple would live here or there.
The country gives the culture a structure and the region makes it its own.
What is obviuous is the similarities of french parts of the country that are located near a foreign border with the foreign country.
The language is also a safegard of the differences.
Poeple are afraid of change.
I beleive that the best teams are composed of individuals that are different. Working in a team does not mean that everybody will become the same but that combined expertise is what it takes to reach any goals. However the key of the success is how well it is managed.
I think it is very similar with the EU and of course it will take time.
I think differences are also present in the US.
Any comments?
BTW, I just watched a french canadian movie "Les invasions barbares" and I really recommend it.
Bonne Journee!

Yes people do hate change, and the more time goes by, the harder it
becomes. I think its a little easier in U.S. because we are constantly
in a flux. There is always a new set of immigrants coming in. Where
I live its mainly central Americans right now.Many of these people work constuction, and it amazes me how many contractors have adapted by speaking Spanish. Now we have supermarkets catering to their needs and introducing new things to past immigrants.
I never thought I would drink beer from El Salvador or Mexico, but
its better then American yet lighter than European beers.
As for France, I hope they can find some synergy with other European
cultures.time will tell.

I read somewhere that French people eat with their hand on the table instead of in their lap to prove they didn’t have a weapon. Is that true?

NoelleAVP: That sounds reasonable. Does that mean that the place setting should not include knives? Donerail

Well I guess if you wanted to crawl across the table with your butter knife and stab the cook, you’d be all set

I don’t know if it’s true!! I would think that applies to firearms in a bootstrap or down your pants.

That’s interesting. I heard the French keep their hands above the table to prove they aren’t on someone else’s dinner partner. I never heard the weapon thing before. My version makes a lot more sense considering the proclivity of many French men (and probably women) to have wandering eyes (and possibly hands).

Interesting ideas . . . puts us right up there with the press’s fascination with Mr. Clinton.

I believe that whole hand on the table thing was about weapons,
mainly swords and knives.

Could a person purchase a Jeep Grand Cherokee in France? Do they use SUV’s? What are the popular forms of transportation besides the metro? Would it be crazy to expect to see someone on a Harley touring through the alps? I’m serious.. If they didn’t go for the "American" models, what are the popular models of transporation in France? Thanks, Noelle

You can buy any car, truck or SUV you want to in France if you have the money. You won’t see many large vehicles on the road for a couple of reasons. First is the cost of gas. It is considerably more expensive there than in the US. Second is the size of the roads. The towns were built hundreds of years before cars so the streets are very winding and narrow. When we lease a car there, we always get the smallest one possible for just that reason. The autoroutes are the same as our freeways (without the potholes and with tolls), and a motorcycle in the alps would not be unusual. You would be more apt to see a BMW than a Harley.

We were eating at an outdoor restaurant in Beaune some years ago when a bright red Dodge Durango rounded the corner. Every male in the restaurant ran out into the street to oogle and they actually clapped and cheered. Now, it may have been a friend of theirs, but it certainly was an unusual sight to see that huge pickup truck driving down a fairly narrow street in Burgundy. Our reaction was, "Oh no. Not here too?!"

You will see lots of Peugeots, Renaults and Citroens that are made in France. You will also see small Fords, Mini Coopers and several Japanese cars. They have a car called the Smart Car that is half a car (the front half). It has four wheels but only one set of seats and you can (barely) get two of them into one parking place, albeit snugly. We saw them recently in London too.

Motorcycles and scooters are very popular although I don’t remember seeing any Harleys. Their bikes don’t seem to make as much noise as the Harley does. The motor bikes and scooters are very popular, especially in town where parking is expensive and traffic horrible.

They don’t appear to use pickup trucks for deliveries. Their delivery trucks are about the size of a small pickup but they are all enclosed. This is lovely because things don’t blow out the back and litter the roads. The roadsides are very clean all over the country.

SUVs are becoming slightly more popular . . .due, I’m sure, to advertising. There may be a backlash because when you’re in a small car (as most people are), it’s hard to see to make turns; it’s hard to see to park and it’s hard to see to get out of parking places. You can’t see over the darn things. They also take up more than their fair share of the road. As long as fuel prices are so high, they certainly won’t become as popular as they are here. Of course, if our fuel prices remain as high as they are now, they may lose some of their US popularity!

NoelleAVP:
"Could a person purchase a Jeep Grand Cherokee in France?"
Yes it is possible to find.

"Do they use SUV’s?"
Not very popular due to high price of gas however those who own one have diesel engines most are Japanese (Nissan).

"What are the popular forms of transportation besides the metro?"
The "metro" is like your subway in NYC. Do you expect traveling to Maryland from NYC using the subway…? We use to have horses but now I think it is mostly car, train, plane…

"Would it be crazy to expect to see someone on a Harley touring through the alps?"
It would be…considering that European or Japanese Motorcycle are more efficient and less noisy.

"I’m serious.. If they didn’t go for the "American" models, what are the popular models of transporation in France?"
What do you mean by "models". Brand, type of transportation???

Jissou.

jissou, I think she means modes of transportation, not "models." In other words, do they most use cars, trains, buses, motorcycles, etc. (I’m interpreting and I may be wrong about this.)

The answer, of course, depends on who they are and where they’re going. If it’s a family outing, they usually use the car. If it’s one or two people going to a vacation, the train is very popular. Trains are much more popular in France than in the US. Buses are also more popular in France than in the US. Of course, the bus and train service in France is much better than it is in the US. That may explain its popularity!

As jissou and I both pointed out, motorcycles are usually European or Japanese made and much smaller and quieter than in the US. I think I covered popular models in my third paragraph if, indeed, she was looking for models instead of modes (as I interpreted).

Thanks for your help jissou. I see occasionally; you see all the time.

SalB,

I never used the bus a lot and here in the east cost it seems to be very popular.
You have a very true view of France. How much time have you spent there?

Thanks everyone!! I’m such a frenchoholic, it’s just so interesting learning about what daily life is like in a place I have never seen yet. On TV and movies like "An American in Paris" and "Le Divorce", it shows those tiny little cars and I wondered is that it… I’m sure people drive fancy cars too like we do, and would it be out of the question to see a Jeep? Because I have one and I couldn’t live without it Merci!

NoelleAVP:
It is quite hard to get an real opinion just through movies…
Regarding fancy cars, yes you can find fancy and it does not have to be big. The usual fancy would be like here I guess: BMW, MERCEDES, PORSCHE, JAGUAR…It is like everywhere else there are rich poeple and poorer poeple.
The fact is that the area where you live makes a big difference (Urban or Country) in terms of transporation…

Jissou.

NoelleAVP: Transportation is my forte. SalB’s story on the commotion caused by a Dodge Durango reminds me of the time a Buick Roadmaster was parked on one of the small streets in the Mouffetard in Paris. You would have thought it was Elvis or Edith Piaf showing up. In Paris, take the Metro. It is nothing like you would ever get in the USA. Clean, fasts, efficient, cheap, and it has fashion. Anyway, back to cycles. Italian bikes and BMWs are the most prevalent. Harleys are becomming more popular. In fact, there is a Harley dealer in Paris in the 17er. Now, BMW and Ducati’s are more nimble but for shear panache you cannot beat a Harley. I own a Heritage Springer and I would love to ride in France. You can rent them, or go on tours on them. Check out Edelweiss Tours on the net. A little expensive but I know people who took the tour and they were totally impressed. Vrrooom. Vroooom. Donerail

Hi, jissou. I haven’t spent all that much time in France. Our first trip wasn’t until 1996 and that’s not long ago. We usually go over for a month to six weeks at a time. We’ve never lived there and, as I mentioned on one of these threads, we’ve never seen the top northeast corner at all.

We try to see things pointed out by locals wherever we visit so have been a few places where we saw no other Americans. We’ve been mistaken for British and Belgians on occasion. Our first trip was a camping trip so we really got out in the country. We’ve stayed in small hotels and logis since then except for a favorite timeshare in Provence. Every time we can get it, we stay there for a week or two. It, also, is way out in the country. We like Paris but we’re really not city people.

Neither of us cares for crowds although we are interested in the tourist sights. If they weren’t interesting, no one would visit them! When a place is usually crowded, we try to go out of season. Fortunately, we’re retired so we can do this.

We do try to talk to the local people when we can and when they talk, we try to listen. Our French isn’t that good, so sometimes they have to repeat something several times but the French are very patient and this doesn’t seem to bother them. They seem to want us to understand what they are saying.

SalB: We have to get you on a Harley. Donerail

we need to get all of you in a "SMART" car…those little 2 seater cars that are popular all over France. Their gas milage is incredible and parking is never a problem, they’re so small

(Disclaimer: I may be wrong!)

Interesting discussion everyone. (I also read through the McDonald’s post. I cringe everytime I see one here in France. I haven’t eaten at one in the U.S. in years. I’ve always thought it was the worst chain. Even as a kid!)

Anyway, I’m 23, American, and arrived for the first time in Europe in late May.

I started out in Lyon. My first observation was that graffiti seemed to be everywhere (this was later confirmed as I went through the Cote D’Azur). Graffiti has largely been wiped out in the U.S. Some may disagree, but I’ve recently been to most of the major U.S. cities. Many large cities have had massive campaigns to wipe out graffiti over the past decade (Phoenix, Denver come to mind). I noticed graffiti seemed common in Italy as well. (I’m speaking, naturally, of more industrial areas and train stations and such. However, arriving in Lyon, in the suburbs, I felt lost in a former Soviet era republic, with all the high-rise, murky-looking apartment buildings and some rather dingy streets, completely drenched in graffiti).

I immediately noticed the cars in Lyon: all very small, and many surprisingly brand new. There are also some Ford models they don’t sell in the U.S. that looked impressive. I think the designs of the French brands and other outside brands made specifically for Europe outshine some of the gaudy junk being produced in the U.S. (the ridiculous new Chevy Malibu, for example. The Daewoos and Kias look cheap compared to the low priced Renaults. I also rented a Smart car in Slovenia — it was fantastic and so big inside that I embarrassingly ran into roadside curbs twice because the wheels stick out. The car feels deceptively bigger than it is).

In Lyon, I stayed in the Vieille Ville (I hope I spelled that right) — the ‘old city’, between the Rhone and Soane. Very impressive area.

I noticed the food prices were not so bad, and pattiseries and boulangeries were everywhere with impressive selections. There was a huge open market everyday on the Soane. I’m not so much a cheese or meat fan, but again, bucharies and fromageries all over the place. Nothing quite like it in the U.S. (it’s difficult to take advantage of such places when you’re staying in youth hostels. I’ve had to eat a lot of pizza on the trip to save money — thankfully it’s been good pizza, save for a bad experience in Venice where I was served wine with water in it! I later heard this is not uncommon in Venice. To Venice’s credit, the finest pizzeria I’ve been to was also there, but off the tourist path).

I also noticed the different style of service, commented on a lot through this thread. In some ways I’m put off by it, but SalB’s opinion has made me reconsider things a bit. What you ultimately have is a system of higher prices and lower tips, while in the U.S., lower prices and higher tips. And hopefully *higher wages* in proportion, for my fellow European friends. I try to tip, but my budget barely allows it at any restaurant (even cafes. I had a 4.00 euro milk shake that seemed to be about 15cl).

The service culture is interesting, and I think ultimately more humane for the worker. When you have people groveling for tips in the U.S., sitting next to your table and smiling in your face as you take your order, wearing ‘flair’ to express themselves, and scared otherwise that they’ll be fired if they don’t perform, I think it’s all very pandering and sales-minded. (The chain restaurant phenomena is also absent here — the one place I do miss is the Outback. Can you imagine an Outback steakhouse in the middle of Paris? One day, maybe.) It’s rarely sincere, but we’re so used to it we think of our waiter as being ‘so nice and friendly’. Here, I have seen people welcomed loudly and joyfully into a restaurant — but they are clearly regular patrons and known by the staff. Otherwise, service is indifferent but never bad. I worked as a waiter before. I loathed it. Here, it seems rather painless.

I also went to ‘Tex-Mex Indiana’, in Paris. Apparently, a mixture of Mexican, Texan and American Indian food! I ended up with a chimichanga (which originated in Mesa, Arizona 50 years ago when a chef at El Charro [forgive me if that’s the wrong name, to anyone who might know, I always ate at Matta’s] accidentally dropped a burro in a deep-fat fryer! Could be urban legend, but they love that story there) … filled with shrimp.

I was thinking about the anti-American sentiment and wondering if it would show itself in France — it did, in me! Many Americans, especially the young hosetellers travelling Europe, have seemed crude and loud compared to the native populations. It’s amazing how easy it is to spot Americans, especially the girls. They don’t ‘look’ European of course, but the style of dress, even how they walk, is noticably different. It’s less sophisticated, frankly.

The purpose of most of the youths (not just Americans) seems to be to find the best pubs, bars and clubs in any given city. I’ve met very few young people that seem approachable or capable of decent conversation. They travel in little groups of three or four, get drunk at night and possibly meet others that way. But not on trains when they’re sober. American youth culture is a bizarredly disconnected and insecure society to begin with.

I wasn’t going to visit Amsterdam, but I got stuck there for a day anyway — you walk off the train and you’re in the tourist meelee. I think it’s the dirtiest city I’ve visited; I felt pity for a streetsweeper going by, pointless (though, lucky for them, they have plenty of canals to dump trash). But if you know young folks in the U.S., it is their worldwide destination of desire. I think it’s a craphole, the popular red light and pot district, anyway.

Finally, I decided I’d enough with it, and while at London Waterloo I struck up conversations with a couple of senior Brits and had a great time talking politics and what not. The Brits seemed especially good humored and light hearted. But, again, the young people everywhere are intolerable. I’ve met a couple of rare exceptions.

Finally, on to Paris, the finest city I’ve been to. Here, I notice, for instance, the traffic is far less congested and manic as in London. There seems to be simply fewer cars, thank god.

Parisians are thin and small compared to Americans. About 2% seem to be overweight, and the women are, bien sur, tres jolie (learned that line fast!). The French in general also speak quieter than Americans, Brits, Germans, probably just about any other culture I can think of, maybe excepting Asians. You don’t have loud outbursts and brash movements, yelling and hollering, or apparently much of a bar scene in this city. People are polite. Despite some stereotypes I’ve heard, Parisians don’t ram into you in lines or cram together like bowling pins on the subway (I did have someone sneak into a line past me, but that was in Munich).

I notice the city is remarkably clean: not on account of government efforts, but simply because people don’t throw their s*** around (well, save for the chiens). The metro is an exquisitely fine-tuned little microcosm. The trains in general are cheaper (and more comprehensible and logical) than Germany and Austria, and far cleaner than Italy.

The apparent crackdown on smoking, at least in Paris, has left it resembling an American city, with all kinds of restrictions. Italians seem to smoke more, and everywhere (on a night train, I swear to god some guy in the booth next to me smoked *all* night). Not that I have a problem with smoking, but it’s nice to know you’re not going to have some jerk smoking on a night train in France.

Another thing is wine — while it’s essentially the same stuff, how Californians (where I worked at a winery) and the French think of wine is quite different. I prefer the California way, I think, because the verietal, the grape itself, is of primary concern, not so much the name that produced it. In France, good wine seems more characterized by the chateau and its
reputation, its appellation, the ‘terroir’ its known for, while the drinker may have no idea what, in fact, they are drinking. The bottles don’t often identify the grape, and cuveés are far more popular here than in CA, and one, if anything, identifies the grape by the region (Alsace being Reisling, Gerwierztraminer, for instance). Anyway, just an observation. I love grapes, and I suppose I haven’t had enough wine to be able to identify it by taste/smell save for some whites (I’ll need a good income to ever engage in that pleasure). That, and reading a bottle of wine here, well, it’s French to me!

I didn’t think I knew hardly any French when I arrived. I’ve taken a couple of classes over the years, but I’m a complete beginner. However, I felt drastically more foreign and entirely lost in Italy, Austria and Germany. It’s amazing how what you think you don’t remember comes back to you when you need it.

While Paris is expensive, I realized I would like to live here. I also realized learning the language is essential and would be my primary activity here. But this is all future considerations. The French are right to expect respect of their language, especially since, in my opinion, it kicks ass in terms of auditory aesthetics compared to Italian, Slavic languages and *egads* GERMAN (my ear drums are still recovering). But I don’t know that I’m willing to say it’s better than English. English, if I’m correct, has more words than any other language (sure, we stole most of ’em). So, it’s bigger. Where I come from, bigger is better. 😉

One last observation: do the French ever visit the U.S. as TOURISTS??? That’s partially a joke. I think Germans are a lot more in love with us than the French, as is the rest of Europe, and I think French culture seems well intact. I don’t get the feeling, as some have noted, that American pop culture is taking over here. If it’s not evident in Paris or Lyon — to me, it barely is — I doubt it’s a problem elsewhere.

Well, I’ve just written way too much.

Cheers,

Billy

Hey there Billy,

Read your whole post through, and as a Frenchman who loves the US found it very interesting.

Allow me to comment on some of your points.

Glad you got to see Lyon, my hometown. Sorry about the graffitis. Yes, they’re everywhere, and we don’t know how to deal with them. They were an ‘import’ from the US that came along with the rap culture, by the end of the 80s. So far, local authorities have struggled to counter the phenomenon, but to no avail. I guess the suburbs where you spotted them the most were places like Vaux-en-Velin or Vénissieux, that are Lyon’s equivalent to South Central L.A. or the Bronx — and I saw big long colorful graffitis on the walls in South Central L.A. 😉

I’m also glad you got to experience the old town, and the marché Saint-Antoine. That new youth hostel they set up on the hill was a brilliant idea.

About the cars : what you wrote about Ford cars reminded me of an idea I had with a friend from NY, a few years ago : export Ford Ka’s to the US ! I’m sure it’d sell like hot cakes 🙂

You are also right about the restaurant. I once talked to a Memphis waiter (he used to work in one of those tourists’ joints on Beale St.), and he was telling me how he’d easily make $ 30/hr, tips only. Tipping is a tradition that’s slowly fading in France, and I guess waiters don’t really count on it or expect it any more, and since wages compensate, they don’t complain. Although I kinda worry about what may be thought from French tourists when not tipping in US restaurants 🙂

About Mex food in France : very different from what you get in the US, to my disappointment. I love having Mex food when I’m in the US, and even at the Bell. I truly believe Taco Bell would sell well in France, especially among the youth. I admit it : although I love the taste of andouillette sauce moutarde or boudin aux deux pommes that my mom cooks, I also enjoy the taste of a good seven layer burrito.

As for the wine, I can’t really agree with you. You might find that CA wines and French wines taste the same, if you had it in Paris only, where they mostly have Bordeaux. Bordeaux and Cali wines taste quite the same, since the vine stocks are of the same origin, and since the terrain and climate where they both grow are pretty much the same too. Now, how and why did Bordeaux became so hip and fashionable and famous and vainly overpriced around the world is a long and interesting story but not my point here. I just hope you had a few tastes of Bourgogne or Beaujolais wines while you were in Lyon.

Finally, thanks for your remarks about how the French are good looking and clean and disciplined, etc … Not everyday I hear that 🙂

Cordialement,

CRC

billym/crc95: Nice posts. The first time I went to France wasn’t until i was in my forties. You are both so fortunate to be able to experience that land so early in life – and crc95, that is your country. So are so right about the wines. Each of the major regions has its own characteristics. Everyone needs to enjoy them all regularly or the taste buds will get overly conditioned to one variety. By the way, wines from Oregon USA (pinot noir) are reminding me of a lot of your burgundies – but much less expensive. Donerail

Donerail : Oregon Pinot noir ? Now that’s interesting … Pinot noir is indeed a Bourgogne vine stock … care to trade ? 🙂 And no, Bourgognes aren’t that expensive. I usually find good 3yr-old Passetoutgrain for $ 5 a bottle at my local grocery store, for my everyday use.

CRC

crc: where do you live? I need to shop at your grocery stores. You cannot buy wine at the grocery store here, except at gourmet grocery stores and they charge a high price for decent wine.

Anyone familar with Madeliene Blvd, between the magnificent St Madeleine and the Opera? There’s a restuarant called something like the "American Experience". Sticks out like a sore thumb. I went in there and got up and left my seat it was so creepy. That, and a hamburger was 12 euros.

Thankfully, I’m staying in an apartment on rue St Jacques in the Quartier Latin. I didn’t realize it upon arrival, but this is the finest part of the city.

Billy

billym: That area also has a LaDuree restaurant/chocolate shop and a Maille mustard store.

crc95: Can you adopt me? I will pay my own way across The Pond. Donerail

billym: near the Laudree tea shop there is Gerard Darel…a boutique of beautiful French clothes. Could you pick up a little jacket there for me?

LaVieilleBranche, You need to move to California. We have wine in all our grocery stores. You have a great selection of both California, French, Australian and Chilean wines . . . among others. We stick to French and California wines because those are the ones we know.

donerail, We have gotten some very nice Oregon and Washington wines. These are also in our grocery stores.

Bonjour!!!
I stumbled into this forum by accident and I am glad I did!! I read everything! I am leaving this Thursday for Paris and Lyon, I love French food, culture, wine, and I can’t wait to experience it for the first time in person…any advice?

Myfarside: We have done that trip twice in the past two years. You are in for a great treat. Some advice: Don’t rent a car for Paris. Use the Metro or cabs. In Lyon, since you probably also want to see wine country which is nearby, a rental car would be good. We rented our’s at the Gare Part Dieu (the newer of the two train stations.) Lyon is the place for food: Try the Cafe de Federation in Old Lyon. You will need reservations. It is not too expensive and you will probably love it. Paul Bocuse also has a few restaurants there. Also, take the 2 hour walking tour (tickets at the visitor center). It will be unforgettable. There are a few other folks who post here who will also give you some suggestions. For lodging in Lyon, we have been staying at the Hotel Carlton. Great location, service, and reasonable rates. In Paris, we have been spoiled by the Hotel de Colbert in the Latin Quarter. Just a couple of hundred yards from Notre Dame and its just gorgeous – if somewhat pricey – but the rooms and service are fantastic. Room 48 has a view of the Rose Window of Notre Dame. Donerail

When in Lyon, if you like French food, I recommend you go to Les Halles de Lyon. That place is like Earth’s Temple For Fine Food. It’s not a very touristy place, since the building does not look good from the outside – which is SO lyonnais by the way – and also because we the selfish French like to keep the real good stuff for our own private selves
Les Halles are located on rue de Bonnel and cours Lafayette. If you want to buy good pork stuff, try Colette Sibilia, it’s where Bocuse buy his. I recommend the cervelas truffé et pistaché. Also, stop by la Mère Richard cheese boutique for the best St Marcellin (Bocuse also gets his from her).

If you’re looking for a nice open-air market, get to the plateau de la Croix Rousse, on the top of the hill, and there’s a big market every morning.

Finally, for wines, the best thing to do is to tour the Beaujolais area, around Villefranche-sur-Saone, about half an hour away from Lyon by train or car.

Enjoy !

CRC

I must say…I am so glad I stumbled into this forum! I am actually staying at this hotel called St Quentin, the people have been very nice to me via e-mail, it doesn’t have air conditioning but I’ll survive, I can’t wait to see the Latin Quarter! for some odd reason I find it very appealing. Byt the way, I am not american born, I am originally from Honduras, I was born in the caribbean side of the country, I speak very little french, but understand enough to get by, I am planning on taking a course when I get back. I don’t know what the temperature is like right now. I am meeting a friend in Paris and he also said to me that the French like to keep the good stuff for themselves. I wish we all could meet in a chat room and to be able to speak about our different experiences and our cultural differences ( french culture and honduran culture are very similar )that is such a wide topic!! is everybody in this forum living in the USA? and if so…where? I live in Michigan..brrr. I can’t wait to hear from all of you!! Ciao

Myfarside, No, we don’t all live in the US. I do. I live in California, near Los Angeles but have lived in many places in the US throughout my life. My best friend set up a forestry library in Tegucigalpa, Honduras many years ago when she was in the Peace Corps, but I’ve never been there.

I’ll let the others tell you where they are from.

myfarside: Welcome to the forums! It’s NICE to see a positive person join these forums.

I’m from New Jersey, right next to new York City, about 30 minutes away from The Big Apple. Whenever I fly to Paris, I leave from Newark International Airport. It is 12 minutes from my house.

If you want to make a chat room, that is easy enough to do. I know some available chat servers we can all link up to. I would make the room, y’all just connect to the server, join the room and poof!

Would be interesting to see donerail and ikorrelim in a chat room together LOL

Myfarside: I am from the Paris of America. The Hub of the World. Of course, I am from Boston. Donerail

Yeah … so where’s Boston exactly ? Can’t seem to locate it on the map.

CRC

They took Boston off all the maps because everyone there is so stuffy.

crc95: Orienteering was never a strong suit for the French. You just added credence to that theory.

SalB: Behave yourself. You are clearly jealous of our Eastern supremacy.

Donerail

Question: Why is Boston nicknamed Beantown?
Answer: Because Boston makes you fart!

I’m soooooooooo mean

sorry donerail

Donerail, I am sorry about Boston, but it just so happens that although I have been to most major cities in the US, including such cultural hubs as Birmingham AL and Jackson MS, I have never set foot on the Bostonian soil. Interesting isn’t it ?

CRC

crc95: You must have been either lost or were being punished by someone if you ended up in Birmingham or Jackson. That had to be pretty scary. Did you sue those responsible? Now Boston. Boston is cool and not just because I live there. Although that would be reason enough. We just had a great DNC convention here – which meant you could speed to your heart’s delight on the roads close to (but not in) Boston. I got the Harley up over a hundred yesterday.

LaVieilleBranche: I was wondering when that Big Apple/New Jersey upbringing would manifest itself. Your last post. A very visable manifestation of the difference in class between Boston and the The Nation’s Armpit. I understand, it’s OK.

Donerail

Is it incredibly macho to break the law?

SalB: I just know you have never gone over the speed limit. It is not "macho" as you referred to it, it was a thrill. Now tell me, if you never got over the speed limit, you are probably responsible for a lot of accidents. Traffic flow is like fluid dynamics. You have to go with the flow. If there is no flow, there is no problem. I realize that this is a lot for a Californian to understand. But I think crc95 knows what I am saying. Donerail

Speed limits in the US are a joke anyway. You can drive on a road in a desert for hundreds of miles without encountering a single curve but ooh ooh watch out for your strict 65mph or the highway patrol combined with the county sheriff thanks to the AWACS above will iraq on your sorry butt.

CRC

SalB: I was on a motorcycle in Rome, Italy 8 years ago with my friend Alberto, blond, blue eyed Italian guy. It was most DEFINATELY a thrill to speed through Roma all night around the city, in a backless silk dress and high heel shoes at high speed!

Especially when the wind whipped up that dress!! (last comment was for donerail)

LVB, I just know donerail appreciated your comment.

No, donerail, I do not speed and I am not the slowest car on the road and I have not caused any accidents. That is a specious argument and I refuse to feel guilty for staying within the speed limit. The flow, at least around here, is usually very close to the limit and I find myself passing quite a few people while I stay at the speed limit. The idiots who enter the highway at 45 mph are the ones who cause the accidents. They seem not to have figured out what on ramps are for.

I’ve driven in Boston and the "flow" was nowhere near 100 mph so don’t try the "go with the flow" argument. It doesn’t wash. You are far more apt to cause an accident than I. By all means, go ahead and speed, but spare us your whining if you get a ticket. It’s your choice so take it like a macho man. (Do macho men whine?!)

Often around here you are fortunate to go 25 mph . . . or even 5 mph depending on the time of day!

crc95, You should go to Montana and drive. They don’t have speed limits there. They have "suggestions" and you are not required by law to follow them. You can also drink while you drive as long as you manage to keep your blood alcohol within a certain range. That’s the "real" West . . .

SalB: Traffic is a lot like fluid dynamics. And it sounds like you know very little about fluid dynamics. Those that don’t go with the flow cause problems with the flow. Those folks ultimately are the cause of of traffic problems – if not accidents themselves. Those folks who decry "the speeders" are usually the ones without good driving skills. And they just love to fall back on "I am upholding the law." Please note that I am not sanctioning eratic driving – swirving in an out without signaling etc. I am just criticising those that impede the flow. I suspect you have caused plenty of traffic backups. That is why I love to drive in France. They know how to drive. Donerail

You read about as well as A-F. Do you know what specious means?

80 mph is speeding. 100 mph is sheer stupidity. Can you honestly tell me that 100 mph is the actual flow of traffic? Jeeze Louise . . .

SalB: As I tried to diplomatically point out, driving skills is what is important. Speed is not that important. And yes, I know what specious means and I don’t see its relevance here. It is apparent that you do not understand what driving skills are. Maybe, as you alluded to, it is a gender think. Women drivers… Donerail

donerail: take your Harley to Texas! They drive at least 100mph there. You’d have a blast speeding on the expressways of Houston and Dallas!!

But of course they’d run you over because you’re a "Damned Yankee"

LaVieilleBranche: Texas sounds like a place to send SalB for Driver’s Ed. I can not see Captain Donerail America taking his Harley down there. Too many Bushies out and about. I would like to give the Arc d’Triomphe a try. I wonder if I would make it thru. I think when the French saw the Big Twin coming thru that they would part like the Red Sea did with Moses. Now where should we buy that vacation home? Donerail

There was nothing diplomatic about your post. It was condescending and rude. There is nothing wrong with my driving skills and your argument is definitely specious and if you don’t see that, you don’t know what it means.

Like A-F, you totally ignored my question: "Can you honestly tell me that 100 mph is the actual flow of traffic?"

We both know what the answer is. Talk about so junior high . . .

SalB: It is somewhat relevant to a French forum as the French know how to drive. If you insist that "obeying the speed limit" is preferred to going with the traffic flow – there is not much I can say to help you. I would have to add you to the list of dysfunctional drivers that populate this country and are responsible for so many traffic problems. Ask LVB what it would be like if you drove the speed limit on the NJ Tnpk. Middle lane is often at 85. Passing lane at – well if you are passing someone going 85… By the way, SalB, you last post sounded a lot like amero-franc. Shrill and defensive. Just some constructive feedback for you. Donerail

complain, complain….tsss tsss…

Let’s all go to Texas and watch those damn Texans speed around on the expressways at 100 mph!

we can drop crc off at the Bush ranch compound on the way!

Ah well, you’ll get the speeding ticket, not I.

I just hope you don’t kill or maim some innocent person zipping around a corner on your little motorcycle at 100 mph.

Boys will be boys!

SalB: in texas, EVERYBODY drives around the state at 100 mph and acts cool about it. It’s the slowpokes on the road who get run down by the speed demons. Where are the police in all of this? Racing in the left lane at 150 mph!

SalB: We never kill or maim the innocent. Donerail

I’m doing something in my International bussiness class and I was wondering if you could help me the Cultural difference in France and the U.S.A It would be really helpful thanks…

No problem. Just post a subject and you will have a lot of answers.
Jissou

Chs_Chick, There are several French people on this forum and several others who have lived in France for varying periods of time. Exactly what cultural differences do you want to know about? Since you are a business major, the assumption would be cultural differences in ways of doing business. Is that what you want?

ManuNice and crc95, can you give some differences you have noticed?

LVB, You have been immersed in both cultures, perhaps you can come up with social cultural differences relating to doing business?

Thanks.

As a tourist, I’ve noticed more formal dress in France and more formal manners in France. Unless on vacation, I’ve not seen many French in shorts and certainly not when they appear to be downtown on business. They don’t wear baseball caps much and never in restaurants. When they enter a store, they always say hello to the proprietor and when they leave, they say thank you and good bye to the proprietor. I’ve noticed when people leave a room, they tend to say good bye to everyone else just as a general politeness.

Restaurants are different in France. They expect you to take a long time and to enjoy your meal. They don’t interrupt you to ask if everything is okay. The assumption is that your meal is okay unless you point out a problem. They don’t interrupt you to give you your check. You only get your check when you ask for it. I really like eating and not being interrupted. Many Americans think it’s bad service because it’s slow, especially if you don’t know you have to ask for that check. The French seem to be able to take the time to enjoy themselves and their families whereas we seem to always be in a hurry to get to the next activity. I find it very relaxing but if I were there on business and trying to get something done quickly, it might be maddening. If you do business in France, you need to be adaptable and flexible. You also need to plan more time than you would here.

The French appreciate intelligence so you should be able to thoroughly defend your business plans and ideas. You should also expect a good argument. It’s not quarrelsome, they just want to discuss all aspects and make sure everyone, including you, understands the situation.

You know, I was just thinking. I’ve read that the French do not have good customer support and if you buy something and it breaks or something is wrong with it that you are just out of luck. I don’t know who wrote that or why. Here’s my story and it’s just the opposite.

A few years ago (pre digital camera), we were in France. I love to take pictures and my camera broke. We took it to a camera shop in Narbonne and the fellow looked at it and concurred with me that it was a dead camera. He cheerfully helped me choose a new camera that I bought.

We spent a happy week in the Pyrenees taking lots of photos and the last day there in the middle of a medieval dance at Villefranche-de-Conflent, my brand new camera broke. Quelle horreur! The next morning, as we left the area, we stopped at the little camera shop in Narbonne. Having read that we would not be treated well with a problem, I didn’t think I had much chance to get any recompense, but figured that I might as well try.

We found the little shop and explained the problem to the man in the shop, a different man from the one who sold us the camera, he tried fixing the camera and came to the same conclusion. This camera too was dead. He took me over to the display and pointed out all the cameras within the price range of my camera and told me to chose one. I did and he cheerfully gave it to me with profound apologies that the first one broke. He also gave me a free roll of film to go with it.

Now if that isn’t excellent customer service, I don’t know what is. (The second camera is still working very well.)

The moral of the story is that you can’t believe everything you read about cultural differences. At least in my eyes, customer service in France is every bit as good as it is here.

SalB : I could elaborate on cultural differences, but I need more specific questions, otherwise I could as well just write a book ! — which has been done before.

And, also, don’t expect me to lend you a camera

CRC

crc95, Yes, I’ve read a few of those books. Some are pretty accurate and some are a little less so, e.g. the book that said the French have lousy customer service. Perhaps it has changed since that book was written, but we had the camera experience and we’ve also requested changes on a set menu that some book said would not ever be done. I admit requesting a starter from a less expensive set menu because it was my favorite and I did say it was a favorite but that if they couldn’t do it, it was okay. It was done and cheerfully. My husband sent a dish back once because when it arrived, he realized it contained broccoli which he hates. The waitress asked a supervisor and it was immediately exchanged. I had gotten the dish the day before and it had not contained broccoli. That’s why he ordered it. They did not ask why; they just exchanged it cheerfully and quickly.

Of all the cameras I’ve owned, these two are the only one that have ever broken. It was the summer of the camera . . . in a bad way! However, I promise not to borrow a camera from you.

Hopefully you will get more specific questions from the originator of this thread.

lets make it short: We french work to live, you American live to work.

ManuNice, That really says it all. It would not make a very long paper though. Perhaps Chs_Chick’s professor will appreciate a succinct answer.

Thank you.

ManuNice and crc95, Have you traveled in the US? If so, what are some difference you notice about traveling here?

I had a German friend once who said the first thing she noticed (in a negative way) was that the US is so big. They were going to Missouri and she said she thought they would never get there. She kept asking her new American husband if they were there yet. Good thing they weren’t going to Calilfornia!

Just curious how it seems when you’re crossing the pond the other way.

Thank you for a warm welcome..I am sorry I have not written…I just got back from France!!!! I went to Paris and then to Lyon and I loved it!!! I loved everything about France, food, people, culture,clothes, wine, FOIE GRAS!! I never knew duck could taste so good!! my boyfriend cooked "Magret de Canard" and I fell inlove with it, also, we ate what he called smoked duck, it almost looks like bacon, anybody know where I can find it here in the states? I have to agree about the service in France, I loved that the waiters did not bother my boyfriend and I while we were having a romantic dinner for two. I have not complaints about France, the only thing that happened was in Paris…my boyfriend was out and I decided to go shopping alone. I venture out of the hotel on foot and I had all kinds of guys following me and asking me to come with them, I finally went back to the hotel and decided to wait for my boyfriend to take me shopping..other than that….I want to move to France, I would do it tomorrow if I could!!!! any advice on how to do it? write back soon and I would love to go a forum and talk to you guys, just let me know what time and when. tchow

I am not American or French, but I have to agree with you in this one, the French work to live and Americans live to work sadly! I have never felt more at home and so relaxed as when I was in France, I am enrolling in a French class this fall at the university, I want to be fluent in French, any advice?

CRC Bonjour!
I just spent a week in Lyon and I loved it!! I already miss it! I can’t wait to go back next year. I agree with Billy’s observations regarding Paris and Lyon. You can spot an american a mile away from their demeanor..for example…we were walking in Lyon with my boyfriend and a group of people were aproaching, I knew they were americans inmediately, they were loud and had a very arrogant attitude, Americans walk a certain way, as though they are somehow better than the rest of the world. Everything in France seems to be superior to America, even the way the toilet flushes!! I did not feel any hostility from the French, I was only frustrated because I couldn’t speak the language, I understand a lot because I speak spanish, but I am working on it. I felt inlove with the name "Sexa Gambeta" one of the metro stops, but of course you know that! I hope we can keep in touch. I would love to hear from you! you can e-mail me if you like. tchow

Love those French toilets!! Gee, I didn’t know other people noticed those things.

I thought I could spot an American in France a mile away but discovered you can only spot a "certain kind" of American. We were eating in a little family restaurant outside of Belflou one stormy evening. It was populated entirely by locals . . . or so we thought. As the evening wore on, our daughter noticed a couple sitting quite near us and she said she could have sworn she heard them speaking English. We were chatting and not paying a lot of attention but did notice the quiet young couple spoke to the waitress in French. Later, everyone had left except the young couple and us. It was getting late and we decided to go upstairs since we were staying the night and assumed the waitress would like some sleep too. As we passed the table, our daughter ventured to say, "Are you staying here too?" to the young couple. We were delighted when they replied in English and discovered they were bicycling enthusiasts who had been in Bordeaux and were doing a little traveling before returning to Baltimore. They were staying and we had a pleasant talk with them and met for breakfast.

They stayed there to avoid other Americans . . . and so did we! There are lots of quiet Americans, many of whom speak adequate (to excellent) French. You don’t pick them out because they blend in. They know the customs, the manners and have many of the same attitudes the French have. They usually are not first-time visitors but people who went to France and grew to love it . . . as it appears you will do.

Welcome back. Glad you enjoyed yourself in France.

My farside … it’s not ‘Sexa Gambeta’ but Saxe-Gambetta !! The spot where rue Gambetta crosses Avenue du Maréchal de Saxe.

Léon Gambetta is a 19th century French republican politician. The maréchal de Saxe was one of Napoleon’s favorite military commander.

Anyway I’m glad you enjoyed Lyon. From a strictly neutral point of view, I think it is France’s best town.

CRC

SalB, ManuNice and I both have spent quite some time in the US (you know that !!!) and would be glad to comment on the differences but again, we need to know some specifics about what you want to know.

Example (which you set) : toilets in the US vs. toilets in France.

Toilets are usually cleaner and larger in the US. They’re usually smaller in France, and often to be used by both sexes (I know this shocks some of you people ). What I don’t like about US toilets is the door that seems to cover only two thirds of what it should cover ! I mean, any creep could peep in.

And I didn’t notice any diff with the flushes What is this all about ??

CRC

I have to agree with y’all on the French toilets. I prefer the closet style room, as compared to the American stall style where you see people’s feet. However, it is an unwritten rule that you NEVER peep in on someoby under the door stall. If somebody did that to me, they might "accidentally" find my foot in their face! Oooops!

you didn’t notice the difference? wow! I did right away, the way the toilet flushes is very different than american toilet, maybe it’s a little detail for you, but I noticed righ away!

thank you so much for the correction!! You’re absolutely correct, thanks for the extra info…I love Lyon, it will always hava a special place in my heart!!

Re toilets (I really did not intend to make an issue of this but since someone brought it up, it’s snowballed): In some states in the US, like California, there are state law regarding how much water can be used in flushing a toilet. (We live in a desert so water is precious!) The allowed low-water flush toilets don’t do a great job. You usually have to flush them two or three times whereas in France, one flush does the job. Of course this also shows how we are not saving water because we end up using the same amount or more by flushing several times . . . despite the best efforts by our idiot legislators. Those states who do not have law regarding water use probably have normal flushing mechanisms and this whole discussion seems silly. It may seem silly anyway, but it is a noticeable difference between France and the US to some of us.

crc95, Any observations on cultural differences would be interesting but here are a couple questions to get you started.

What differences do you notice in public transportation? (Relate this to where you were in the US because it varies greatly in different regions of the US.)

What differences do you notice in eating? (a) finding good restaurants, (b) type of cuisine, (c) service, (d) general attitudes

What differences do you notice in tourist facilities? (esp. language and tourist sights touted by local areas)

How do you feel about personal safety in both countries?

That’s a start. Feel free to add anything that you particularly noticed. I think the first thing I noticed in France was that they take twice as long to eat a meal as in the US. It was a big difference to us the first trip. We have grown to love it, but it was odd at first.

SalB : that’s a lot of questions, so I’ll have to answer them while I’m at work

Today : Question #1 – public transportation.

Well, I’ve only been on the subway in NYC and Chicago. I also know Amtrack and Greyhound quite well.

Subway trains I’ve used are quite the same as in Paris. Out network may be bigger, and simpler too. But I feel the subways I rode in the US are cleaner and safer, and what I like about them is that you don’t have to go through miles and miles of tunnels and escalators to reach for your line. Inner city bus lines are fine too, I rode a lot of these in many cities across the USA, and they’re helpful and cheap.

Amtrack can’t beat our SNCF. Well, that’s because no Americans will travel with Amtrack unless they’re too scared to fly. Amtrack is slooooow, late, and there are states that don’t get Amtrack at all. What I like about Amtrack is that the coaches are very comfortable, and service is good. Very relaxed atmosphere. It’d better be good, since the average ride will be something like 10 hours ! Actually one of my best moments in the US happens to be an Amtrack one. I had bought a first class sleeping car ticket (not that I was rich at the time, but it was the only seat left), on the City of New Orleans between Jackson MS and Chicago IL. They fed us a great steack, and then I just had to fall asleep in my big comfy bed to the sound of Muddy Waters on my CD player, at sundown, while the train rode peacefully through the Delta. Anyway …

I won’t comment on Greyhound, because, well, it’s Greyhound, and most Americans never rode on a Greyhound at all But let it be known that Greyhound is cheap, and very practical. You’d be amazed by the number of European tourists you meet on these things

Finally, planes and airport … clearly a lot better in the US, you guys make it so convenient to take a plane, I love it. I hate Roissy CDG, it was probably designed by Kafka’s grandson. Best place to get lost and miss your flight. Hey maybe that’s what it is for ? Lyon airport is better, but too small to bear the comparison.

Well, that’s about all I have to say about public transportation. Now that I’m older and richer, I just rent cars

CRC

crc95: I wouldn’t hesitate to use public transportation in Paris or in the rest of France. In the USA, that would be my last choice. San Francisco and Washington isn’t too bad but those are also not too extensive. I haven’t tried Chicago. NYC and Boston are beyond horrid. The rental car option is the way to go. As far as air travel, yes, we have the convenience factor which is more than outweighed by lousy service and delays – say nothing of the security b/s. Amtrak is a national disgrace. I took it once from Boston to Richmond. Slow, noisy, and dirty. I will never make that mistake again. For some reason, Americans do not want to pay to keep an infrastructure developed and maintained. Maybe when the price of gas hits $5 or more a gallon we will change. Donerail

Public Transit! Uggg! Amtrak sux! I’ve taken it several times to Montreal from New YOrk City and on every trip, the train either broke down or stopped for mechanical problems and required immediate repairs. Either way, every trip was on average 6 hours late arriving to Montreal.

I take NJ Transit into NYC from my house, the Midtown Direct Line. It’s late many times arriving into the city. A 30 minute car ride into Manhattan can take at least 1 hour on that infernal train. During rush hour, forget about getting near a seat. It’s like being on an Indian train in India. Cramped, stinking, with people pushing non-stop.

The NYC Subway is OK in winter but that is because you don’t smell the dirt and urine as much in the cold. There is no ventilation system down in those subway stations. During the summer months they are RANK! and humid! I don’t take the subway in the summertime. I take the bus. It’s slower, but it’s air-conditioned and easier to get a seat. And you don’t have to wait underground in a stinking, urine, roach infested station. Let’s not forget those noisy metal wheels on the subway trains that emit a high pitched squeeeeeeeeaaaaaaal as they pull into the station. The noise is so loud I have to plug my ears!

IN tulsa, OK they have public buses to get around but these don’t run everywhere and they run only during workdays. After rush hour, the buses stop running. There is no train system to get around at all.

Washington DC subways are lovely! really! Clean, organized, easy to get around.

I LOOOOOOVE the Paris metro! They’re cleaning it up (finally!) and the rubber wheels make waiting for a train a civilized matter. I personally like walking through all those tunnels and stairs to get to the metro. It’s great exercise for me and helps to slim my legs!

The TGV is wonderful! Words cannot express the joy and beauty of a fast moving TGV!

LVB: That is exactly how I remember the NYC Subway System. crc95 must have been experiencing jetlag when he was on it. Either that or he was under some hypnotic spell… Donerail

I stand my ground, once you’re accustomed to the Paris metro, the NYC one is not that bad. And I’ve rode it up to 125th St.

Best suburban train to my opinion : the Chicago Metra. That’s like another commuting planet. Cleanest, fastest, and the ticket collectors make you feel like you’re on the Orient Express. By the way, I know it might sound weird, but it’s through one of them that I first heard the "work to live / live to work" thing.

CRC

By the way, I forgot to tell you : THE best metro ever is the one in Lyon, no contest. One line is fully automated with no driver. Train coming in every 2 minutes. Try and beat that y’all parisian losers with your ligne 14 ! Was such an event when it first opened but hello, we’ve had that for 15 years and it’s still way better. Ligne 14 is buried so deep under the ground that architects had to go beneath hell to build it !

CRC

crc95: You are right about the Lyon Metro. Absolutely gorgeous. Another great thing about Lyon is the underground parking gararges. The garage Republique is amazing. Artwork, music and lighted spaces. Now what is it about Chicago that turns you on? You must have been on some sort of medication that you should share with us. Donerail

Why, what’s wrong with Chicago ?? It’s easily among US’s top beautiful cities. The architecture is wonderful, a lot better than NYC. And people are nicer and more relaxed. And the music … and the culture … I love this town. Have you ever been there ?

And thanks for your comment about Lyon. You’re right, our parkings are great, they’re safe, clean, and practical, I get jealous each time my car gets to stay there

CRC

crc95: I have only been to Chicago twice. I was very unimpressed both times. I must admit I have never tried their public transportation. But, in general, public transportation in the USA is deplorable. Boston probably has the worst. Not just the vehicles themselves, but the whole experience – maps/directions/signage/facilities – are horrible to the point of being scary. Then when you factor in the service aspect, including escalators that don’t work and a fare system that is archaic and bizzare – together with rude employees – well, you get the picture. LVB has described NYC transit as well. All I can think is you hit the RTA in Chicago at an opportune time. Which reminds me somehow, how about those new electric busses in Lyon – snow white to include even white wheel covers. Those are so quiet that you have to be careful not to walk in front of one. Donerail

crc95 is right about Chicago. My father used to live there and I visited often. He lived out in a suburb and we often took public transportation into town. The city itself is great. Highly recommend the Museum of Science & Industry. The Chicago Symphony is my favorite orchestra. The lake front area is spectacular and he’s right about the architecture. The public transportation system has been well known for years and years.

They also have a terrific ice cream shop!! Chicago is a super city. I’m surprised you had a mediocre experience there. Get a couple good guide books and check them out before you go next time. Also check the Tribune when you get there. Not only is it a great newspaper, it gives a lot of information about what’s happening in the city.

Just don’t go in winter!!

SalB: Compared to Boston, Chicago is mediocre. At that is giving them credit for having what must be a superior transit system. As far as the Great Lakes go, Superior and Huron are nice. Erie, Michigan, and Ontario are borderline cesspools. Nope, I’ll take Boston, French cities, and San Francisco in that order. If only we had a Baseball Team. Donerail

I love the Lyon Metro!!! also, the best metro in America is in Washington D.C. Let’s face it…public transportation in the US just plain sucks! What I loved about Paris and Lyon is the walking part, I ate 24/7 and actually came back in better shape!! Does anybody know where I can find cheap tickets for my boyfriend from Lyon to Grand Rapids Mi? I am going to surprise him and fly him to the States. Tchow

A good place to look for cheap tickets is right here on visitfrance.travel.

Click on the blue and red France.com above and when you get to the home page, click on "Airfares" on the right side of your screen. You may have to play with dates a little, but they often have great deals.

There are the other air sites too, i.e., Expedia, Orbitz and of course, the airline web sites. It really pays to check a LOT of different sites before you buy.

donerail, I’m not going to diss Boston. It’s a wonderful city, but I do much prefer the Chicago Symphony to yours. I have friends in both so it’s not a matter of prejudice, just sound. Do you get to many BSO concerts?

Other Chicago goodies : Blues & Jazz bars … so many of them, offering great music with well known bands.

Chicago also seems to have more libraries, more theaters, more downtown universities than any US city I’ve been to.

My favorite building is the Merchandise Mart, I just love that massive shape. I like the Opera too.

The food … mmm … they got the pan pizza in Chicago, I believe it was created there.

Even the ghetto in Chicago looks nice. I heard southside Chicago is America’s largest ghetto. I like to go there just walking around too. Great church services on sunday mornings.

Chicago … my kind of town !

CRC

SalB: What could you possibly diss about Boston? (We have already covered the subway and transit system. We are the Hub of the Nation and justifiably so. We are the Seat of Wisdom. If you and and crc95 like schools and libraries – Boston must be the center of the Universe for those institutions – say nothing of some of our other educational friends 60 miles away. We have all the sports and the most knowledgeable sports fans. We have the best newspapers. Most of our ghettoes has already gone "upscale." Last but certainly not least, we are finishing up on the largest and most expensive road construction project in the history of mankind – including the Great Pyramids. All courtesy of the other 49 generous states. What a country! BTW, funny you asked but I took some time off from Harley riding and attended Ozawa’s return to the BSO at Tanglewood last weekend along with a food and wine tasting. Fifty of so wineries from California were represented. It was a gorgeous (and expensive) weekend. The weekend after next is Beethoven’s 9th for the final weekend at Tanglewood for the season.

crc95: Ok, I’ll bite. Tell me what you were doing wandering around Southside Chicago at night.

Donerail

donerail, You read others’ posts like your nemesis, A-F. crc95 mentioned Sunday morning church services in Southside Chicago. That’s not exactly night. I said I would NOT diss Boston so then you have to tell me why. If I choose not, I already know why.

Glad you enjoy Tanglewood. We have a little summer place in the Berkshires and Tanglewood is one of our favorite places to go. Have you been to Saratoga? It’s nice although we do prefer Tanglewood. My husband grew up back east and his family loved Tanglewood so it was quite natural that he wanted to take me. That was 40 years ago! Did you perch Mrs. donerail on the back of your Harley?

SalB: I see you continue to answer for and ask questions for others. Maybe you should let them comment for themselves. (If you can.) I made the assumption that crc95 would be out and about in Southside Chicago at night based upon the belief that he likes nightlife. You will have to re-read your post as you are beginning to sound like amero-franc much more than I am. You brought up the subject of Boston and the "diss." Of course Boston cannot be dissed. (With a few exceptions.) BTW, Mrs. Donerail does not elect to be "perched" on a Harley by me or anyone else. We had to go to Tanglewood (alas) Harleyless. It was painful but a weekend at The Red Lion is not hard to take. Saratoga is the place every American should spend at least one weekend. Preferably during the Travis Stakes or the Jim Dandy. That is America. Donerail

donerail, Admit it. If you’re not bellyaching about me, you’re bored.

Donerail : no, I never ventured out in southside Chicago at nighttime. I might be stupid sometimes but not THAT stupid.

SalB, I’m afraid since A-F left the forum, causing donerail a lot of despair, you might be called upon to fill in his shoes

CRC

Oh well, at least I can spell.

SalB: Your spelling and syntax are impeccable and that is what differentiates you from amero-franc.

crc95: So now you tell me that Chicago is your favorable American city only if the sun is shinning? C’mon. In any event, it is nice to see the Red Sox slapping the White Sox around this weekend.

Donerail

I lived in Chicago for 14 years, and the West side did me in. The South side is really kind of nice…even at Night. I love the South Park Blvd., converted to King Drive years ago. I like the Operation Push Church with it’s beautiful pillars at 51st and Drexel and the black iron fence around it. Lot of trees in South side. A wonderful JacksonPark golf course…the left overs of the UofC and Worlds Fair Science and Industry Museum which was FREE for the longest time. The U of Chicago campus looks like an English old Cambridge with super hospitals and a statue to Mr. Teller which looks like a grey Mushroom. Yes, the Southside has or had the "El Rukns" group…I have known Kiwanis or john birch groups that can hurt you more, maybe. The White Sox play "Bill Veeck baseball" on Sundays…lol. But don’t walk on the West Side, west of the Chicago Bulls house which Willard Wirtz built. But lord knows anyone has "rights to walk" through and into my "Italian Polish area"..

I’m just wondering if there are many differences between the households in France in comparison with those in America (apartments too). I’m sorry if it is irrelevant to the topic.
Ex animo,
The Queen of Spades

ive been living in the US for 21years now and i still love France better than the US becuase i feel better in France because of the culture there.

SalB

I think the thing I noticred most was that everything in France is smaller, like stoves, refrigerators, apartments . . .

They don't seem to have the need to own "huge" things. Perhaps space is at a premium; I'm not sure the reason, but everything is more compact.

Families tend to eat together too. In the US it's hard to find families who eat two meals a day together. Even more difficult to find in the US are Mom's who do most of their own cooking. This is the norm in France although as mother's go to work, it is slowly changing.

US restaurants seldom have seating for one or two. If you go in by yourself or as a couple, you are given a  table for four (or more). In France you will be given a table for one or if you are a couple, a table for two. The tables are much closer together too because they don't talk very loud so you don't sit there listening to the conversation at the next table. It also makes Americans seem very loud when they are in a French restaurant.

Restaurants, tables and servings are smaller. Of course, so are the French. Hm, wonder why? LOL

SalB

Forgot the biggie . . . the French get much more vacation time and they take the vacations. Smart folks . . . 8^)