"Since you feel so sorry for arabs in france, why dont you move to an arab neighborhood outside of paris? i’m sure you’d survive maybe one or two weeks there before some arab youth knifed you…"
-By LaVieilleBranche (French Politics, page 5, post 2)
June 25, 2004 at 8:27 am
"IN paris, it is different, it’s safer…there’s a police presence, lots of people everywhere…ourside in the northern paris suburbs, in the arab suburbs, a nice european french man doesn’t go into those neighborhoods unless driving through there in a FAST car…they will kill you there if you’re not arab or north african.."
-By LaVieilleBranche (French Politics, Page 5, post 6)
Was this a whole lot different than what Sweird said? I’m not sure, but I think he was talking about the Arab street or something like that.
June 25, 2004 at 12:37 pm
ahhhhhh i see…this is another childish thread..like your name-calling thread…to pick on people you don’t like…
no, what I said here is truth, plain and simple…I speak from experience, having BEEN there…what sweird said was completely different. Notice how MY posts weren’t deleted and sweird’s was…that should be proof enough..
amero-franc: you’re old enough to vote? you could of fooled me….you remind me of some nasty, vengeful students I teach. Too bad for you.
June 25, 2004 at 1:06 pm
LaVieilleBranche,
How dare you call me a racist when you say things worse about them than what I ever said. It might be true, but I can just feel your hate for Arabs just reading these posts. Ew, Alrighty, anyone who read my posts can tell you that I didn’t say anything quite that bad.
If you read my posts the most dicey thing that I said was that there are more cops there to keep the Arabs under control. You pretty much said the same thing. You really goofed up!
June 25, 2004 at 1:27 pm
Sweird You are right there is a large police presence in Paris. They have been there for many years this is not new. I have been told by Parisians that the police are mainly there to protect the French from the French. The French pride themselves on their revolutionary spirit and spontaneous revolts have been known to happen. there were many revolts in the 1960’s. I am not old enough to know first hand , but I believe the Police were out in even greater numbers in the 1970’s.
June 25, 2004 at 5:35 pm
Amero-franc: Nothing should be censored. I can sense already that LaVieilleBranche probably thinks her comment was too harsh. I believe she was basically trying to point out a high crime area in north Paris. I wish I could provide commentary on what sweird said but his post was censored and I didn’t get to see it. I know that there are French people that don’t like Arabs. I know some of these people. I also know that these people are pretty decent folks otherwise and eventually they will probably change. I was brought up in the USA by parents who thought that anyone who could not trace their roots back to County Cork was suspect. I think I managed to get beyond that narrow thought process but it took a while. After 9/11 though, I found it difficult to maintain a sense of objectivity. And I know that is not right. Donerail
June 25, 2004 at 9:31 pm
This forum itself was Censored. It used to be called "Censorship Scandal". It was moderated to "Censorship Issues". Francecom, you have perfect right to do it, but you got to admit Censoring that name is a pretty strict Censoring code.
June 26, 2004 at 1:41 am
sweird: I saw your deleted post. It is positively the WORST thing you’ve ever said here. DrEska did, too and he commented about it. NO, i won’t repeat it here. You can call me any name you want, but the fact is YOU were DELETED.
D-E-L-E-T-E-D.
not edited, but DELETED. Completely DELETED.
Notice how my posts haven’t been been deleted, or had major censorship by the forums admin.
That should set the record straight.
I don’t know why you’re even in this forum, since you seem to hate France, Europe and everything they’ve ever accomplished. If you have nothing positive to say about Europeans, then you don’t belong here.
June 26, 2004 at 1:45 am
donerail: I’ve been to France many times and have seen and experienced many things. I am the voice of experience in what I post. To elaborate further in this forum is not a wise idea. If you need to know more, I will email you. Some people in this forum don’t need to know.
June 26, 2004 at 9:46 am
LaVieilleBranche: I think I know what you are saying. But it appears to some that you are categorizing a whole group of people in a certain light. I have to guess that is what sweird did but in more graphic and more negative terms. I have to disagree with both of you. (Well, with you anyway as I never got a chance to see what he or she wrote.) There are neighborhoods that I would not want to go into. Not because of "who" is there – but because of "what" is there. Crime, drugs, sleaze. Those traits come in all colors and sizes. I wouldn’t want to see sweird go until we had converted him. Donerail
June 26, 2004 at 10:59 am
donerail: i’ll elaborate more in an email this weekend…There are things I know that you don’t….
That being said, when I was in Paris at Christmas 2003 (check my photo album for the photos) I saw this AMERICAN standing in the Madeline quartier yelling out "F*CK YOU!" to every single French man who walked by in his loudest yelling voice. He yelled out that obscenity at me, then he said…oooops,NOT you…i walked up to him and told him to shut up, that it was Americans like him that give ALL Americans who travel to France/other countries a bad name. I said that if he hated the French so much, then he should get out of France, but for goodness sake, SHUT UP!
yes, he did shut up and his face turned very red….what an idiot….this was a young man in his mid 20’s, too.
This is just one example in a series of MANY things I’ve seen Americans do. And then Americans wonder why the rest of the world looks at them with suspect.
June 26, 2004 at 1:09 pm
LaVieilleBranche: I don’t doubt what you saw. I don’t think any reasonable person would consider that individual representative of anything other than a crude crackpot. It would have nothing whatsoever to do with race or nationality. Donerail
June 28, 2004 at 6:10 pm
donerail" unfortunately I’ve seen other Americans in France and Italy do similar things as what I mentioned above. This isn’t an isolated case…
Anyways, I find it hilarious that Amero-Franc beats the drum of "editing" here in france forums, and then complains when the same admin edit the topic of this thread!
June 28, 2004 at 10:04 pm
LaVieilleBranche: No, you did not see "Americans" doing that. You saw very boorish individual(s) doing that. They could have been any nationality or race or creed. Do you not agree? Donerail
June 29, 2004 at 8:14 am
donerail: not at all, i don’t agree. I’ve NEVER seen any foreign tourists visiting NYC behaving in such a boorish manner as I’ve seen Americans overseas. That’s just one example. I haven’t told you the other examples. I’ve seen Americans do in France, or Italy or Germany, etc…I myself was treated nastily by Americans overseas, because they thought i was French (they admitted to this!!)… amazing….
If I’d seen European tourists behaving in similiar fasion here in the USA then I could agree. But not in this case.
An American friend of mine was going to use my apartment in Paris at the time to visit. when I told her what she needed to bring, how the culture was, what she needed to know, she said, "I’m AMERICAN. I can do whatever the hell I want there." (exact words). Unfortunately it’s this supposed air of superiority that puts a stigma on all Americans.
YOU might not be a boorish clown, but from what I’ve seen in the USA, most Americans are rather boorish in a refined society.
June 29, 2004 at 12:29 pm
We’ve seen odd behaviour by Americans in France too. We were at a restaurant in Paris sitting in the nonsmoking section. An American couple came in and immediately lit up. (There were plenty of seats in the smoking section.) My husband politely pointed out (in French) that this was the nonsmoking section. The American couple, thinking us French, had a hissy fit and informed us they could smoke anywhere they wanted to. (The French, I might add, were smoking where they were supposed to be.)
Fortunately, we had finished our dinner so we asked for the bill and left. As we walked out, the young lady announced to her escort that the French (us) were total boors and very bossy. All we did was point out that it was nonsmoking any my husband has got to be one of the quietest most polite people I’ve ever met. So, who was boorish?!
We’ve also noticed that you can immediately pick out Americans by their loud voices. In all honesty, it’s only the loud Americans who are in this category though. The others fit in and are relatively anonymous until you catch a phrase in English. We’ve met some lovely American couples in France and they have very good manners. I suspect they have lovely manners at home too.
There are many people who feel that if you are spending your tourist dollars in a country, you can say or do anything you want. I call it the "I’m paying for it" syndrome. I don’t think most tourists are like that, but the ones who are stand out so much that they give most of us a pretty bad name.
It isn’t just Americans though. We’ve seen rude Germans, rude Orientals, rude British, rude (yes!) French and rude Dutch. There are probably others but we don’t recognize their languages. I think polite and rude people come in all nationalities. I think we notice Americans more because it’s kind of embarrassing since we’re American and don’t want to be lumped with them.
I must admit I’ve never seen anything like the behaviour LaVieilleBranche saw. Perhaps it was late and the young man was drunk. We usually don’t go out in the evenings so don’t see that sort of thing. Crazy things happen . . . perhaps his French girlfriend just dumped him; perhaps his French employer just fired him. Who knows what could have brought it on. That doesn’t make it right, just more understandable.
We have seen some pretty obnoxious behaviour by Europeans (even French ones) in this country. There are these youth camping trips that travel from campground to campground in the West with large groups of teenagers and 20 somethings. They can get pretty rowdy and take over an entire campground. Kids will be kids . . . no matter what nationality!
June 29, 2004 at 6:56 pm
SalB/LaVieilleBranche: I can’t defend boorish behavior on the part of Americans in France. I have seen it as well. I used to be one of them until I got some education on customs and mores. Generally, these people are not being malicious – just ignorant. That individual that LaVieilleBranche was using as "typical" (shouting FU at passerby) was obviously drunk or on dope. To use that as an example of typical horrid American behaviour is over the top. Just as your example of the smoker is. Just about every tour book alerts travelers that the French love to smoke everywhere. I have seen this. It used to happen here all the time as well. I think you would have to agree that we are more boorish here at home than we are when we visit foreign countries. It could be a variation, again, of that freedom thing. I don’t subscribe to it (any more) but the thought: "I’m here to spend my money on you, so put up with me" is somewhat understandable. Again, I don’t subscribe to it. One thing that bothers me more though, and this will one of you going and is more germane to this thread: I heard on the news today that the US is deporting some Iranian UN workers because they took photographs of bridges and the Statue of Liberty. Now how do you suppose our "authorities" found that out. I believe now that if I was to take a picture of the Statue of Liberty, I might be subject to some further scrutiny. What do you think? I think they probably do that in France too, but I believe the French would be more "up front" with it. Donerail
June 30, 2004 at 12:00 am
SalB: no, it was in late afternoon, right near the Madeline Church where this idiot was standing and cursing out the French. I don’t normally go out at very very late hours in France because after 1 a.m. the metro shuts down for the night and taxis can be extremely hard to come by at that hour. Walking alone through quartier Mouffetard at 3 a.m. isn’t exactly my cup of tea…
and that reminds me of another group of American men, and how they had hired (i assume they paid him) a Frenchman to be their "pimp" for the night to procure French girls who happen to be walking home late at night (I missed the last metro). Walking to one’s apartment at night does NOT make you a "lady of the evening"! You can imagine what I told those group of FAT American guys and their French "pimp"!!!! (this was at place de la contrescarpe) GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR…………..
June 30, 2004 at 12:59 pm
Clarification needed: donerail, you said, "Just about every tour book alerts travelers that the French love to smoke everywhere."
Since the smokers were American and they thought we were French, I don’t understand your point, i.e. the Americans were smoking and being nasty when asked (presumably by the French or us) to do it in the nonsmoking area (with the French smokers who were doing exactly what they were supposed to do.)
As far as the photos, I guess it’s because I grew up at the end of the McCarthy era, but I’m always very aware of what I’m photographing. I try to avoid military people or installations, police and their buildings and activities, civic buildings (unless of great historic interest) and anything else that might be McCarthyable. I can’t imagine not taking a photo of the Statue of Liberty and/or Brooklyn Bridge if I visited NYC though. Those are major tourist destinations. If they start to deport everyone who takes a photo of the Statue of Liberty, there will be no tourists left in NYC. Hopefully there was more to it than that . . . unless they’re trying to cut down tourism.
I think the Republicans are a bit paranoid about NYC right now because of the Republican National Convention. They seem to be a bit paranoid anyway.
June 30, 2004 at 4:43 pm
SalB: I knew you were going to give me a clarification of some sort. That is an excellent analogy with McCarthy. I wasn’t quite old enough at the time to understand but I have learned since. (Dutch Reagan was fond of him, for AmeroFranc, if he is still reading these posts.) Instead of commmies, we have a few hundred whackos around the world that want to end their own lives and kill us in the process. I have an idea that Tom Ridge and Company are pondering our forum posts and taking notes. To think we might need some more investigation if we take a photos of something that we are looking at – I think that is going way too far. The Founding Fathers have to be spinning. The fact that it is probably worse in other countries should make me feel better but somehow it doesn’t. I guess its a question of competency again. You don’t see the French asking an 80 lady in a wheel chair to take off her shoes. But if you look like Yassir Arafat you are going to get the probe. Donerail
June 30, 2004 at 4:47 pm
LaVieilleBranche: We have a saying here in Boston that should hold true for most cities (in the US anyway.) "Good things don’t happen to you when you are out alone after 11pm." There is also a variant: "Good things don’t happen to you if you are in a bar after 11pm." Donerail
June 30, 2004 at 4:59 pm
donerail, I wasn’t giving you a clarification. I was asking for one FROM you. To repeat . . .
You said, "Just about every tour book alerts travelers that the French love to smoke everywhere."
My question was: Since the smokers were American and they thought we were French, I don’t understand your point, i.e. the Americans were smoking and being nasty when asked (presumably by the French or us) to do it in the nonsmoking area (with the French smokers who were doing exactly what they were supposed to do.)
BTW, I’m not exactly an 80 year old lady in a wheelchair, but the French have pulled me out of line and thoroughly gone through my luggage. They have been very polite about it, but while they were doing this, people who might easily have been profiled as terrorist suspects walked cheerfully past and were not checked at all. I have had this happen many times and have put it up to reverse profiling. Either that or they are picking the people who are least likely to cause any trouble. We ran into it in London too. We escaped in Rome. They appeared to think we were an older middleaged couple who were tourists . . . which is what we thought we were too.
June 30, 2004 at 5:17 pm
SalB: you think you were searched? I was strip searched (yes, that’s right..strip searched) by an old lady x-ray inspector at Newark Airport 2 years ago, stripped down in front of the US Army and in front of the x-ray machines where EVERYBODY was walking by!!!. While the Army guys were trying to act discreet and not oogle me (I respect them for not leering too much), all she had to do was ask me to remove my silk money belt under my clothes and I’d have gladly oblidged (I told her what it was). instead, she made me take off my shirt, life my skirt up over my hips and she went through my money belt…thank goodness nothing was missing…(I had counted the $$$ immediatly afterwards). Talk about embarassing….You stand there in your skivvies, where thousands can see you and you’d feel strange, too…
taking off shoes, or going through my suitcase is fine with me
June 30, 2004 at 6:00 pm
Good grief, LaVieilleBranche. That sounds worse than the Munich massage.
Changing planes in Munich when we went through security absolutely everyone was put first through the rainbow security device, luggage through the x-ray machine and then we were wanded while we stood spreadeagled. Next they patted us all down completely before we could retrieve our belongings and board the plane. All this was after we had previously gone through airport security. People were so upset they were forgetting purses and wallets on the x-ray belt. They had to come through the plane trying to find the people who owned these things.
I must admit that they were very polite and good natured about it, but it seemed very invasive to me. If I had gone through a strip search, I would have written letters to a few people and complained. That’s pretty uncalled for and could at least be done in privacy.
And Bush is telling us the world is a safer place????? If it’s so safe, why are they doing these things?!!
June 30, 2004 at 10:50 pm
the world is definately NOT a safe place…and I remmeber being in London Heathrow 3 years ago,(right before the 9-11 disaster) and they hand searched everything I owned, all the while letting the turbened crowd and the Muslems go through with no search at all. When I reminded them that Americans didn’t blow up the plane over Lockerbie (the reason they SAID they were searching people, to prevent another Lockerbie), they called me a racist pig, etc….betcha they wouldn’t call me names NOW, considering all that has happened….
Last Christmas at Newark International, my Air France flight was one of the supposedly "targeted planes" by Al Quaida. It left 4 hours late from Newark, and what you went through at Munich was NOTHING compared to what we went through to just get onto the plane. Then came the bomb sniffing dogs to check out each passenger and their belongings, (after 2 full hand/body searches). They had a hookup with Interpol and FBI databases and did a 2nd security check through the databases with each passport. The US Army was on the walkway to the plane with all their machine guns. The USA tanks encircled the plane. US Army with dogs checked out every inch of the inside/outside of the plane and the cabin crew grilled us about who we were, etc…once at your seat, you couldn’t leave your seat to use the bathroom until the flight took off. Now I know how passengers on El Al feel in Jerusalem….
the first night in Paris, there was a bomb threat outside of Galeries Lafayette, between Lafayette and Boucheron on Boulevard Haussmann. Somebody left an unmarked package slightly hidden next to a garbage can on the street. The square there was cleared of pedestrians, the bomb squad came in, whisked the package away. You never heard anything about this in the media. How do I know this? guess who was THERE watching this when the bomb squad drove up? You can bet your life I got out of there FAST when I heard that it was a bomb threat!
Well, I did have a wonderful time anyways in Paris, and I got wonderful photos of Christmas in Paris (that are posted on the online photo album) 🙂
June 30, 2004 at 10:59 pm
You certainly lead an exciting life . . . and I certainly don’t envy you. Every morning when we left our youngest daughter off at school she used to look at me and say, "Have a boring day, Mommy." She knew exactly what I wanted!!
June 30, 2004 at 11:10 pm
SalB: I never planed for any of these strange things to happen… it just happens. When you travel a lot and travel alone you see and experience things that groups and families don’t get to experience
So when i generalize about something, I have a reason for it. I usually saw/experienced/tasted/smelled/etc it
June 30, 2004 at 11:14 pm
SalB: I’m glad donerail wasn’t there when I was strip searched. He DEFINATELY would of oogled me!
July 1, 2004 at 6:22 pm
LaVieilleBranche: I don’t suppose those dozen bottles of wine and 50 pounds of cheese had anything to do with the search, did it? And by the way, I would never have "oogled." I am applying for a Security job at Newark International, however. Donerail
July 1, 2004 at 11:07 pm
LaVieilleBranche, You surprise me. Do you truly think a gentleman who rides a Harley, reads Playboy and listens to Howard Stern would actually ogle you? Now, really . . .
July 1, 2004 at 11:23 pm
salB: NEVER! he’d of been a voyeur and spied me strip searched through a high pair of binoculars…
donerail: nope..i had no wine/cheese when this happened. Interestingly enough, i was NEVER searched upon entering the USA, always leaving the USA…maybe it was the nice big smile and slightly flirty attitude I took with the USA (male) customs personnel…
July 2, 2004 at 2:20 pm
LaVieilleBranche,
Woe there! Are you serious about that story? Open strip searches are totally illegal. They didn’t even take you back in the back room or anything like that? That is sick! Really sick! Probably just a 9-11 reaction that hopefully is over now. Makes me glad Bush just kept on reading that book to the kids.
In the Middel-East they’re a lot more secure than over here, but a least they respect you a lot more. In Jordan they take you all back into a search booth and pad you down, but they have sex seperation so you wont have to worry about someone padding you down to get their kicks. Over there they pad about everyone down, but they’re a lot nicer.
I would rather live in a world where you have a 50% chance of servival and still have my privacy and personhood. Like B. Franklin said, "He who gives up a little bit of his rights for a little bit of security deserves neither."
July 2, 2004 at 4:45 pm
SalB/LaVieilleBranche: I make a comment about airport security and a few posts later the two of you have me ogling LaVieilleBranche during a strip search. In front of Amero-franc as well. Isn’t that special. Us Harley guys don’t ogle. Grope, maybe, but not ogle. As a minimum, we would leer.
Amero-franc: Since SalB and LaVieilleBranche have turned on me I need allies. Your quote from Ben Franklin was right on the money. It took twenty years, but 1984 is here.
Donerail
July 2, 2004 at 9:57 pm
DrEska: Happy Birthday Canada! Is it still known as Confederation Day? You are a great neighbor that we take so much for granted here in the USA. Enjoy the Holiday! July 4th and Bastile Day are coming soon as well. Donerail
July 3, 2004 at 7:51 pm
Amero-Franc: yes, that story is REAL and it happened on the first March after 9-11, at Newark Airport at the air France x-ray machines. The person who did the stripping was AMERICAN and she was an old lady, too. I was on my way to Paris. It was really embarassing and rather humiliating to have go through that. I haven’t been stripped down like that since. Hopefully it won’t ever happen again.
Too bad donerail, you missed the chance to oogle me!
July 3, 2004 at 10:08 pm
LaVieilleBranche: Are you sure it was the Security people doing the search? Putting the strip search aside for the moment, what is your favorite French wine, and your favorite cheese? Donerail
July 3, 2004 at 10:58 pm
donerail: the old woman who strip searched me was one of those people who work the x-ray machines. The security agents who x-ray your shoes, pat you down, etc. It was very embarassing to have to lift my skirt up over my hips while she groped me in my underwear…and lift up my shirt all the way up so she could check me out. However, I was wearing black Wolford tights, so at least my skin was covered. People must of seen how embarassed I was because nobody was leering at me. Some men actually turned and looked the other way, out of respect….except the army, of course…
of course we know YOU’D NEVER LEER!
Other than that…it’s hard to choose a favorite wine. It depends on what I’m eating, of course. However, a top quality Chateauneuf-du-pape, a St. Emelion (spelling), and some Alsace wines such as a Gewertstraminer (spelling) vendages tardives, a GOOD pinot noir/blanc are all wonderful beverages
In my opinion, the best cheese is a fruity conte, direct from the Jura town of Malbuisson. They have an artisinal cheese factory in an old 19th century war fort (would that all instruments of war could be put to use making cheese or other useful things). It’s a much harder cheese, with much less fat and grease then a brie de Meaux. It has a lovely, delicate taste that pairs wonderfully with a light white wine.
If you’re ever in the Jura, you MUST get a bottle of "Le Vert Sapin." It’s pine tree liqueur. It has a wonderful, pine tree taste and reminds me of Christmas. It’s DELICIOUS! You can purchase this in Malbuisson, in the local grocery store there on the main road, next to the tall smokehouse. you cannot miss the smokehouse. You can see it and smell it, The owner owns a smoked meat/tourist shop and he smokes meat 24/7 for his shop and for the grocery store behind his property, (where you get the pine tree liqueur).
July 3, 2004 at 11:28 pm
LaVieilleBranche: As I said previously, I would not ogle but I would probably leer. Those are good wine selections. But you left out Burgundy. The cheese is to die for. Donerail
38 Comments On Censorship Issues
Should this "racist" comment be censored?
"Since you feel so sorry for arabs in france, why dont you move to an arab neighborhood outside of paris? i’m sure you’d survive maybe one or two weeks there before some arab youth knifed you…"
-By LaVieilleBranche (French Politics, page 5, post 2)
"IN paris, it is different, it’s safer…there’s a police presence, lots of people everywhere…ourside in the northern paris suburbs, in the arab suburbs, a nice european french man doesn’t go into those neighborhoods unless driving through there in a FAST car…they will kill you there if you’re not arab or north african.."
-By LaVieilleBranche (French Politics, Page 5, post 6)
Was this a whole lot different than what Sweird said? I’m not sure, but I think he was talking about the Arab street or something like that.
ahhhhhh i see…this is another childish thread..like your name-calling thread…to pick on people you don’t like…
no, what I said here is truth, plain and simple…I speak from experience, having BEEN there…what sweird said was completely different. Notice how MY posts weren’t deleted and sweird’s was…that should be proof enough..
amero-franc: you’re old enough to vote? you could of fooled me….you remind me of some nasty, vengeful students I teach. Too bad for you.
LaVieilleBranche,
How dare you call me a racist when you say things worse about them than what I ever said. It might be true, but I can just feel your hate for Arabs just reading these posts. Ew, Alrighty, anyone who read my posts can tell you that I didn’t say anything quite that bad.
If you read my posts the most dicey thing that I said was that there are more cops there to keep the Arabs under control. You pretty much said the same thing. You really goofed up!
Sweird You are right there is a large police presence in Paris.
They have been there for many years this is not new. I have been
told by Parisians that the police are mainly there to protect the
French from the French. The French pride themselves on their revolutionary spirit and spontaneous revolts have been known to happen. there were many revolts in the 1960’s. I am not old
enough to know first hand , but I believe the Police were out in
even greater numbers in the 1970’s.
Amero-franc: Nothing should be censored. I can sense already that LaVieilleBranche probably thinks her comment was too harsh. I believe she was basically trying to point out a high crime area in north Paris. I wish I could provide commentary on what sweird said but his post was censored and I didn’t get to see it. I know that there are French people that don’t like Arabs. I know some of these people. I also know that these people are pretty decent folks otherwise and eventually they will probably change. I was brought up in the USA by parents who thought that anyone who could not trace their roots back to County Cork was suspect. I think I managed to get beyond that narrow thought process but it took a while. After 9/11 though, I found it difficult to maintain a sense of objectivity. And I know that is not right. Donerail
This forum itself was Censored. It used to be called "Censorship Scandal". It was moderated to "Censorship Issues". Francecom, you have perfect right to do it, but you got to admit Censoring that name is a pretty strict Censoring code.
sweird: I saw your deleted post. It is positively the WORST thing you’ve ever said here. DrEska did, too and he commented about it. NO, i won’t repeat it here. You can call me any name you want, but the fact is YOU were DELETED.
D-E-L-E-T-E-D.
not edited, but DELETED. Completely DELETED.
Notice how my posts haven’t been been deleted, or had major censorship by the forums admin.
That should set the record straight.
I don’t know why you’re even in this forum, since you seem to hate France, Europe and everything they’ve ever accomplished. If you have nothing positive to say about Europeans, then you don’t belong here.
donerail: I’ve been to France many times and have seen and experienced many things. I am the voice of experience in what I post. To elaborate further in this forum is not a wise idea. If you need to know more, I will email you. Some people in this forum don’t need to know.
LaVieilleBranche: I think I know what you are saying. But it appears to some that you are categorizing a whole group of people in a certain light. I have to guess that is what sweird did but in more graphic and more negative terms. I have to disagree with both of you. (Well, with you anyway as I never got a chance to see what he or she wrote.) There are neighborhoods that I would not want to go into. Not because of "who" is there – but because of "what" is there. Crime, drugs, sleaze. Those traits come in all colors and sizes. I wouldn’t want to see sweird go until we had converted him. Donerail
donerail: i’ll elaborate more in an email this weekend…There are things I know that you don’t….
That being said, when I was in Paris at Christmas 2003 (check my photo album for the photos) I saw this AMERICAN standing in the Madeline quartier yelling out "F*CK YOU!" to every single French man who walked by in his loudest yelling voice. He yelled out that obscenity at me, then he said…oooops,NOT you…i walked up to him and told him to shut up, that it was Americans like him that give ALL Americans who travel to France/other countries a bad name. I said that if he hated the French so much, then he should get out of France, but for goodness sake, SHUT UP!
yes, he did shut up and his face turned very red….what an idiot….this was a young man in his mid 20’s, too.
This is just one example in a series of MANY things I’ve seen Americans do. And then Americans wonder why the rest of the world looks at them with suspect.
LaVieilleBranche: I don’t doubt what you saw. I don’t think any reasonable person would consider that individual representative of anything other than a crude crackpot. It would have nothing whatsoever to do with race or nationality. Donerail
donerail" unfortunately I’ve seen other Americans in France and Italy do similar things as what I mentioned above. This isn’t an isolated case…
Anyways, I find it hilarious that Amero-Franc beats the drum of "editing" here in france forums, and then complains when the same admin edit the topic of this thread!
LaVieilleBranche: No, you did not see "Americans" doing that. You saw very boorish individual(s) doing that. They could have been any nationality or race or creed. Do you not agree? Donerail
donerail: not at all, i don’t agree. I’ve NEVER seen any foreign tourists visiting NYC behaving in such a boorish manner as I’ve seen Americans overseas. That’s just one example. I haven’t told you the other examples. I’ve seen Americans do in France, or Italy or Germany, etc…I myself was treated nastily by Americans overseas, because they thought i was French (they admitted to this!!)… amazing….
If I’d seen European tourists behaving in similiar fasion here in the USA then I could agree. But not in this case.
An American friend of mine was going to use my apartment in Paris at the time to visit. when I told her what she needed to bring, how the culture was, what she needed to know, she said, "I’m AMERICAN. I can do whatever the hell I want there." (exact words). Unfortunately it’s this supposed air of superiority that puts a stigma on all Americans.
YOU might not be a boorish clown, but from what I’ve seen in the USA, most Americans are rather boorish in a refined society.
We’ve seen odd behaviour by Americans in France too. We were at a restaurant in Paris sitting in the nonsmoking section. An American couple came in and immediately lit up. (There were plenty of seats in the smoking section.) My husband politely pointed out (in French) that this was the nonsmoking section. The American couple, thinking us French, had a hissy fit and informed us they could smoke anywhere they wanted to. (The French, I might add, were smoking where they were supposed to be.)
Fortunately, we had finished our dinner so we asked for the bill and left. As we walked out, the young lady announced to her escort that the French (us) were total boors and very bossy. All we did was point out that it was nonsmoking any my husband has got to be one of the quietest most polite people I’ve ever met. So, who was boorish?!
We’ve also noticed that you can immediately pick out Americans by their loud voices. In all honesty, it’s only the loud Americans who are in this category though. The others fit in and are relatively anonymous until you catch a phrase in English. We’ve met some lovely American couples in France and they have very good manners. I suspect they have lovely manners at home too.
There are many people who feel that if you are spending your tourist dollars in a country, you can say or do anything you want. I call it the "I’m paying for it" syndrome. I don’t think most tourists are like that, but the ones who are stand out so much that they give most of us a pretty bad name.
It isn’t just Americans though. We’ve seen rude Germans, rude Orientals, rude British, rude (yes!) French and rude Dutch. There are probably others but we don’t recognize their languages. I think polite and rude people come in all nationalities. I think we notice Americans more because it’s kind of embarrassing since we’re American and don’t want to be lumped with them.
I must admit I’ve never seen anything like the behaviour LaVieilleBranche saw. Perhaps it was late and the young man was drunk. We usually don’t go out in the evenings so don’t see that sort of thing. Crazy things happen . . . perhaps his French girlfriend just dumped him; perhaps his French employer just fired him. Who knows what could have brought it on. That doesn’t make it right, just more understandable.
We have seen some pretty obnoxious behaviour by Europeans (even French ones) in this country. There are these youth camping trips that travel from campground to campground in the West with large groups of teenagers and 20 somethings. They can get pretty rowdy and take over an entire campground. Kids will be kids . . . no matter what nationality!
SalB/LaVieilleBranche: I can’t defend boorish behavior on the part of Americans in France. I have seen it as well. I used to be one of them until I got some education on customs and mores. Generally, these people are not being malicious – just ignorant. That individual that LaVieilleBranche was using as "typical" (shouting FU at passerby) was obviously drunk or on dope. To use that as an example of typical horrid American behaviour is over the top. Just as your example of the smoker is. Just about every tour book alerts travelers that the French love to smoke everywhere. I have seen this. It used to happen here all the time as well. I think you would have to agree that we are more boorish here at home than we are when we visit foreign countries. It could be a variation, again, of that freedom thing. I don’t subscribe to it (any more) but the thought: "I’m here to spend my money on you, so put up with me" is somewhat understandable. Again, I don’t subscribe to it. One thing that bothers me more though, and this will one of you going and is more germane to this thread: I heard on the news today that the US is deporting some Iranian UN workers because they took photographs of bridges and the Statue of Liberty. Now how do you suppose our "authorities" found that out. I believe now that if I was to take a picture of the Statue of Liberty, I might be subject to some further scrutiny. What do you think? I think they probably do that in France too, but I believe the French would be more "up front" with it. Donerail
SalB: no, it was in late afternoon, right near the Madeline Church where this idiot was standing and cursing out the French. I don’t normally go out at very very late hours in France because after 1 a.m. the metro shuts down for the night and taxis can be extremely hard to come by at that hour. Walking alone through quartier Mouffetard at 3 a.m. isn’t exactly my cup of tea…
and that reminds me of another group of American men, and how they had hired (i assume they paid him) a Frenchman to be their "pimp" for the night to procure French girls who happen to be walking home late at night (I missed the last metro). Walking to one’s apartment at night does NOT make you a "lady of the evening"! You can imagine what I told those group of FAT American guys and their French "pimp"!!!! (this was at place de la contrescarpe) GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR…………..
Clarification needed: donerail, you said, "Just about every tour book alerts travelers that the French love to smoke everywhere."
Since the smokers were American and they thought we were French, I don’t understand your point, i.e. the Americans were smoking and being nasty when asked (presumably by the French or us) to do it in the nonsmoking area (with the French smokers who were doing exactly what they were supposed to do.)
As far as the photos, I guess it’s because I grew up at the end of the McCarthy era, but I’m always very aware of what I’m photographing. I try to avoid military people or installations, police and their buildings and activities, civic buildings (unless of great historic interest) and anything else that might be McCarthyable. I can’t imagine not taking a photo of the Statue of Liberty and/or Brooklyn Bridge if I visited NYC though. Those are major tourist destinations. If they start to deport everyone who takes a photo of the Statue of Liberty, there will be no tourists left in NYC. Hopefully there was more to it than that . . . unless they’re trying to cut down tourism.
I think the Republicans are a bit paranoid about NYC right now because of the Republican National Convention. They seem to be a bit paranoid anyway.
SalB: I knew you were going to give me a clarification of some sort. That is an excellent analogy with McCarthy. I wasn’t quite old enough at the time to understand but I have learned since. (Dutch Reagan was fond of him, for AmeroFranc, if he is still reading these posts.) Instead of commmies, we have a few hundred whackos around the world that want to end their own lives and kill us in the process. I have an idea that Tom Ridge and Company are pondering our forum posts and taking notes. To think we might need some more investigation if we take a photos of something that we are looking at – I think that is going way too far. The Founding Fathers have to be spinning. The fact that it is probably worse in other countries should make me feel better but somehow it doesn’t. I guess its a question of competency again. You don’t see the French asking an 80 lady in a wheel chair to take off her shoes. But if you look like Yassir Arafat you are going to get the probe. Donerail
LaVieilleBranche: We have a saying here in Boston that should hold true for most cities (in the US anyway.) "Good things don’t happen to you when you are out alone after 11pm." There is also a variant: "Good things don’t happen to you if you are in a bar after 11pm." Donerail
donerail, I wasn’t giving you a clarification. I was asking for one FROM you. To repeat . . .
You said, "Just about every tour book alerts travelers that the French love to smoke everywhere."
My question was: Since the smokers were American and they thought we were French, I don’t understand your point, i.e. the Americans were smoking and being nasty when asked (presumably by the French or us) to do it in the nonsmoking area (with the French smokers who were doing exactly what they were supposed to do.)
BTW, I’m not exactly an 80 year old lady in a wheelchair, but the French have pulled me out of line and thoroughly gone through my luggage. They have been very polite about it, but while they were doing this, people who might easily have been profiled as terrorist suspects walked cheerfully past and were not checked at all. I have had this happen many times and have put it up to reverse profiling. Either that or they are picking the people who are least likely to cause any trouble. We ran into it in London too. We escaped in Rome. They appeared to think we were an older middleaged couple who were tourists . . . which is what we thought we were too.
SalB: you think you were searched? I was strip searched (yes, that’s right..strip searched) by an old lady x-ray inspector at Newark Airport 2 years ago, stripped down in front of the US Army and in front of the x-ray machines where EVERYBODY was walking by!!!. While the Army guys were trying to act discreet and not oogle me (I respect them for not leering too much), all she had to do was ask me to remove my silk money belt under my clothes and I’d have gladly oblidged (I told her what it was). instead, she made me take off my shirt, life my skirt up over my hips and she went through my money belt…thank goodness nothing was missing…(I had counted the $$$ immediatly afterwards). Talk about embarassing….You stand there in your skivvies, where thousands can see you and you’d feel strange, too…
taking off shoes, or going through my suitcase is fine with me
Good grief, LaVieilleBranche. That sounds worse than the Munich massage.
Changing planes in Munich when we went through security absolutely everyone was put first through the rainbow security device, luggage through the x-ray machine and then we were wanded while we stood spreadeagled. Next they patted us all down completely before we could retrieve our belongings and board the plane. All this was after we had previously gone through airport security. People were so upset they were forgetting purses and wallets on the x-ray belt. They had to come through the plane trying to find the people who owned these things.
I must admit that they were very polite and good natured about it, but it seemed very invasive to me. If I had gone through a strip search, I would have written letters to a few people and complained. That’s pretty uncalled for and could at least be done in privacy.
And Bush is telling us the world is a safer place????? If it’s so safe, why are they doing these things?!!
the world is definately NOT a safe place…and I remmeber being in London Heathrow 3 years ago,(right before the 9-11 disaster) and they hand searched everything I owned, all the while letting the turbened crowd and the Muslems go through with no search at all. When I reminded them that Americans didn’t blow up the plane over Lockerbie (the reason they SAID they were searching people, to prevent another Lockerbie), they called me a racist pig, etc….betcha they wouldn’t call me names NOW, considering all that has happened….
Last Christmas at Newark International, my Air France flight was one of the supposedly "targeted planes" by Al Quaida. It left 4 hours late from Newark, and what you went through at Munich was NOTHING compared to what we went through to just get onto the plane. Then came the bomb sniffing dogs to check out each passenger and their belongings, (after 2 full hand/body searches). They had a hookup with Interpol and FBI databases and did a 2nd security check through the databases with each passport. The US Army was on the walkway to the plane with all their machine guns. The USA tanks encircled the plane. US Army with dogs checked out every inch of the inside/outside of the plane and the cabin crew grilled us about who we were, etc…once at your seat, you couldn’t leave your seat to use the bathroom until the flight took off. Now I know how passengers on El Al feel in Jerusalem….
the first night in Paris, there was a bomb threat outside of Galeries Lafayette, between Lafayette and Boucheron on Boulevard Haussmann. Somebody left an unmarked package slightly hidden next to a garbage can on the street. The square there was cleared of pedestrians, the bomb squad came in, whisked the package away. You never heard anything about this in the media. How do I know this? guess who was THERE watching this when the bomb squad drove up? You can bet your life I got out of there FAST when I heard that it was a bomb threat!
Well, I did have a wonderful time anyways in Paris, and I got wonderful photos of Christmas in Paris (that are posted on the online photo album) 🙂
You certainly lead an exciting life . . . and I certainly don’t envy you. Every morning when we left our youngest daughter off at school she used to look at me and say, "Have a boring day, Mommy." She knew exactly what I wanted!!
SalB: I never planed for any of these strange things to happen… it just happens. When you travel a lot and travel alone you see and experience things that groups and families don’t get to experience
So when i generalize about something, I have a reason for it. I usually saw/experienced/tasted/smelled/etc it
SalB: I’m glad donerail wasn’t there when I was strip searched. He DEFINATELY would of oogled me!
LaVieilleBranche: I don’t suppose those dozen bottles of wine and 50 pounds of cheese had anything to do with the search, did it? And by the way, I would never have "oogled." I am applying for a Security job at Newark International, however. Donerail
LaVieilleBranche, You surprise me. Do you truly think a gentleman who rides a Harley, reads Playboy and listens to Howard Stern would actually ogle you? Now, really . . .
salB: NEVER! he’d of been a voyeur and spied me strip searched through a high pair of binoculars…
donerail: nope..i had no wine/cheese when this happened. Interestingly enough, i was NEVER searched upon entering the USA, always leaving the USA…maybe it was the nice big smile and slightly flirty attitude I took with the USA (male) customs personnel…
LaVieilleBranche,
Woe there! Are you serious about that story? Open strip searches are totally illegal. They didn’t even take you back in the back room or anything like that? That is sick! Really sick! Probably just a 9-11 reaction that hopefully is over now. Makes me glad Bush just kept on reading that book to the kids.
In the Middel-East they’re a lot more secure than over here, but a least they respect you a lot more. In Jordan they take you all back into a search booth and pad you down, but they have sex seperation so you wont have to worry about someone padding you down to get their kicks. Over there they pad about everyone down, but they’re a lot nicer.
I would rather live in a world where you have a 50% chance of servival and still have my privacy and personhood. Like B. Franklin said, "He who gives up a little bit of his rights for a little bit of security deserves neither."
SalB/LaVieilleBranche: I make a comment about airport security and a few posts later the two of you have me ogling LaVieilleBranche during a strip search. In front of Amero-franc as well. Isn’t that special. Us Harley guys don’t ogle. Grope, maybe, but not ogle. As a minimum, we would leer.
Amero-franc: Since SalB and LaVieilleBranche have turned on me I need allies. Your quote from Ben Franklin was right on the money. It took twenty years, but 1984 is here.
Donerail
DrEska: Happy Birthday Canada! Is it still known as Confederation Day? You are a great neighbor that we take so much for granted here in the USA. Enjoy the Holiday! July 4th and Bastile Day are coming soon as well. Donerail
Amero-Franc: yes, that story is REAL and it happened on the first March after 9-11, at Newark Airport at the air France x-ray machines. The person who did the stripping was AMERICAN and she was an old lady, too. I was on my way to Paris. It was really embarassing and rather humiliating to have go through that. I haven’t been stripped down like that since. Hopefully it won’t ever happen again.
Too bad donerail, you missed the chance to oogle me!
LaVieilleBranche: Are you sure it was the Security people doing the search? Putting the strip search aside for the moment, what is your favorite French wine, and your favorite cheese? Donerail
donerail: the old woman who strip searched me was one of those people who work the x-ray machines. The security agents who x-ray your shoes, pat you down, etc. It was very embarassing to have to lift my skirt up over my hips while she groped me in my underwear…and lift up my shirt all the way up so she could check me out. However, I was wearing black Wolford tights, so at least my skin was covered. People must of seen how embarassed I was because nobody was leering at me. Some men actually turned and looked the other way, out of respect….except the army, of course…
of course we know YOU’D NEVER LEER!
Other than that…it’s hard to choose a favorite wine. It depends on what I’m eating, of course. However, a top quality Chateauneuf-du-pape, a St. Emelion (spelling), and some Alsace wines such as a Gewertstraminer (spelling) vendages tardives, a GOOD pinot noir/blanc are all wonderful beverages
In my opinion, the best cheese is a fruity conte, direct from the Jura town of Malbuisson. They have an artisinal cheese factory in an old 19th century war fort (would that all instruments of war could be put to use making cheese or other useful things). It’s a much harder cheese, with much less fat and grease then a brie de Meaux. It has a lovely, delicate taste that pairs wonderfully with a light white wine.
If you’re ever in the Jura, you MUST get a bottle of "Le Vert Sapin." It’s pine tree liqueur. It has a wonderful, pine tree taste and reminds me of Christmas. It’s DELICIOUS! You can purchase this in Malbuisson, in the local grocery store there on the main road, next to the tall smokehouse. you cannot miss the smokehouse. You can see it and smell it, The owner owns a smoked meat/tourist shop and he smokes meat 24/7 for his shop and for the grocery store behind his property, (where you get the pine tree liqueur).
LaVieilleBranche: As I said previously, I would not ogle but I would probably leer. Those are good wine selections. But you left out Burgundy. The cheese is to die for. Donerail