French Politics

France is not conservative and here is an example that makes your reasoning "procreation" for denying same-sex couples the right to marry is absolutely with a base and just plain wrong, you judge from ignorance.

For the sake of clarity we deleted the article that was included in this post. It was way off-topic.

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I this thread, I am not asking for an editorial about sex. I just want someones observation about the political structure. I really don’t know very much about this. I other words this thread is not for debate.

Just a point of opinion. As soon as PM Blair makes a decisive leadership move to forgo any further acts of aggression in the Middle East I suppose it would be easy to move on the business of solidifying the EU and securing borders. It seems as if he is almost to this point. The aliance with Bush was a bad idea to begin with. The world has its mark/eye on the leaders who backed the war and will make its voice heard in every election.

Blair is allowed to make one mistake. The moral objective of blair’s allegenge with dickhead bush was honourable, his method though left a lot to be desired. Bush’s reasons were public retaliation for reassurance for the scared american people and assurance that he was doing something about terrorism in general. this was his scapegoat.

I am an American and I have known that since the first day "the event" happened. I nearly got beat to a pulp merely speaking my mind on Sept. 13, 2001. Since this happened, I AM scared, but not because of terrorism. I am scared because my government seems to be changing. Changing into something that is NOT the same as it once was, not the ‘land of the free.’ I was born American, all my life is here, and yet I am scared because ALL MY LIFE is under the Bush regime’s whim. And this is not a good place for a person to be.

I apologize for my country’s actions on behalf of the Texan buffoon who they’ve appointed to "lead" us.

Cement:

What is your drug of choice?

Hey my name is Cianna Rykiel I live in Utah! I am 15! I am 1/2 French and 1/2 American! I want to get to know you! Email me at doyouwannaC@hotmail.com

Hi There,

The policical situation in France cannot clearly pictured through regions as it can be done by states in the US, since we have a direct election system in 2 rounds for the presidential elections.

Presidential elections take place every 5 years in 2 rounds. Half of congress is reelected every 3 years, and half of the senate every 3 or 4 years. Anyone who can gather 500 signatures from any mayors in France can present itself at the first round, and then the 2 best competes in the second round. During the last elections, more than 16 persons present themselves at the first round. 3 to 4 from the right, 1 from the far-right (Le Pen), 10 from the left, and 2 from far-left.

The main topic of last presidential election was, of course, security, which Jospin (left and former PM) did not cover quite well. French were really anxious to get this topic addressed following 9/11, and did not receive the appropriate answers from the left. Additionaly, given that there was 10 persons from the left at the first round, it has been impossible for Jospin to get the necessary votes, and Le Pen was elected to the second round. So, this election was not a success for Le Pen but a big mistake for Jospin.

Once Le Pen went to the second round, it was obvious that it would never have been elected. So we had to choose the crook (Chirac) to not get the facist (Le Pen) elected, which we did with over 80% for Chirac.

As far as the geographical aspect of politics, you can first split up France in 2 regions: Ile de France (Paris and his region) and the rest of France. Paris really drives France, salaries are much higher, but rents also. The quality of life is, in my opinion, lower however. FYI, Paris and his region is the first economic region over the rest of Europe, given its central geographical position, but also the allways existing "star" diagram being built in France around Paris. Just take the train in France and you’ll understand, don’t even think going from the soutwest to the northwest without going through Paris and its subway, it is simply impossible.

Now, if you want to look closely at the rest of France, you have first the northern regions close to England, Belgium, Germany, etc… which are the driving central regions of Europe. Lilles and Strasbourg are good example of such cities.These regions are mostly from the Right as they have a lot of rural population and small economic dynamics. Then, you have Britany, on the west coast, which is very rural too, and therefore from the Right mostly, but you have a lot of young and teacher like people in this region, and therefore left and socialist sometimes realise good score there. Then you have "la gironde" on the southwest and "Toulouse" also which is a big city where Airbus is (the plane maker who is starting to beat the hell of Boeing -just kidding) and some software company too. Then you have the mideterranean region which is very dynamic due to his good weather, all new software company for instance settles down there in Nice, or Marseilles, or Montpellier as their employees prefer leaving in the south than in Paris. This regions is usually from the left, but could turn out to be from the far-right as they have a lot of Muslim population followng the Algerie war and other immigration factors.

But overall, if you want to simplify things, just consider Paris = France = Left mostly, and from time to time, the right goes to the governement to beat the hell of everything the left did.

I can’t help myself to mention one thing that you guys don’t probably know, and would wish to have in your own country. Guess how many weeks of vacation EVERY french got every year… 5 weeks and that’s the bear minimum. Since about 2 years know, the standard week duration came down from 39 hours to 35 hours. Let me give you an example on how French use this free time, a friend of mine works as a Software Engineer at the post office, he has 5 weeks vacation a year, and could take half a day off every week, a full day off every 2 weeks, 2 days every months, or 9 weeks vacation if he works his 39 hours a week instead of 35.

I’d like to give you another example that stroke any americans who I told that story to. I’m a software engineer with 5 years in college, 40 hours a week (and not 20 hours like you american)… guess how much I paid for it a year??? 3 fucking $… can you believe also that I received 3000$ every year in grant for eating, renting an appartment, etc… so in fact, I’ve been paid to go to school! and my case is not uncommon, I know tons of people who received grants based on social reasons (parents income for instance) and not on score. Studens whose parents make millions every year would need to pay only $500 for the full year in any college.

I can’t help myself feeling that in some way, American are jealous of France, especially now that we are ready to voice well thought opinions. Now, if you don’t like wind of change, don’t play the game, because you first decided of the rules. Take the steal trade issues, you guys didn’t want to play a global economy so you didn’t, what do you guys think about this, hum? you set global trade rules when it’s good for you but you are suffering from it, you just say, what the heck, rules are there to be broken, right?

I don’t think so pal! See you in the next 10 years, when Asia will be leading the world, with Europe following, and USA only trying to feed its own people, if it even cares, because this, you guys could start doing it right now!

Sorry if I feel angry, but I’ve been leaving in the US for the past 4 years, and everyday has been a deception, no american dreams, standard of leaving so poor that you can see people working 100 hours a week just to have enough to feed their kids (ref: Bowling for Columbine from Michael Moore), but nobody fucking care about this!

You careless attitude, and individualim have already killed the american dream, do you really want that it kills you!

One last thing, you guys need to pay more taxes, twice as much, and then we may see some results.

Glad to have known the US, but now that I’m getting ready to leave, I won’t have ANY regrets.

Cheers,
Julien

Julian:

Glad you’re leaving…I get six weeks a year off…and good pay…our Postal Workers get 6 weeks and better pay than me…Apparently, you did not avail yourself of all of the programs available in America to pay for your education…and apparently, and if you worked for a more prestigious company in America…software engineer…you would be making more money…

Please do not mistake our comments of France for jeolousy…I believe it is the other way around…France is jeolous of America, our power, wealth, etc…We are NOT a welfare state…as is France…perhaps that accounts for your "lackadaisacal" attitude towards the rest of the world…In welfare states…the usual "battle cry" is, "if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it"…

I sure like Visiting France. I did all I could to Explore Paris and the Raileurope. I loved it. I also really respect President
Jacques Chirac. He has great patience and ability.

I don’t know much about American politicians anymore… most just want to Control everyone else. Follow their rules, or they will
start a war or send a Billion dollars to Mars.

Look!

In this thread I was not asking for your political opinions. I think we have enough of those threads.

In this thread I was wanting someone to explain to me the political climate. I can tell you alot about the political climate in America without telling you my opinion.

For instance The Republican Party is more Consevitive (less socialistic) The Democratic party is more leberal (and want more social programs. I could also tell you that other parties haven’t made it to the forefront. I could also tell you which reagons are more Democratic such as Massachusetts or more Republican like South Carolinia. Or some Conservitive-Democrate twist like in Louisiana.

Those are the sort of things I am looking for. Please!, if your just going to give your opinion, go to another thread.

FORUM: I just found this thread. It seems I am always finding a new one. Julien, you are a hot $hit. You remind me of some very good friends currently in college. Danairozo: Your perspective and that of Julien are very insightful and welcome. You’re both correct that the USA has to concentrate on the future as the Chinese are going to be very strong economic competitors. We will have a good start at that in November when we toss Bush/Chaney/Rummy/Rice/Wolfowitz/Peaarle et al out on their asses. Ikorrellim: overnite me a nice bottle of French wine and I’ll stay home on Election Day. Donerail

Again!

I’m not asking for your political opinion. please read my previous comments.

I am not sure of the parameters Amero-Franc is asking for. Thanks for the view, Donerail. But, I guess the aim in this thread is for something skeletal. Like, who are the three big parties in Germany, and why did one of them try to Oust PM Schroeder.
In this France forum, I will try to refrain from too much opinion, myself. Saying silly things about hemp thread is bad. It is hard to give opinion and You know why. I have been in Yahoo, Talkcity and AOL forums for opinion…they were nasty and far from the subject. I don’t want to feed into that, I would rather eat Cheese in a Renoir setting and walk along the Champs Elysees. Political Party explanations? It’s a Matter of Who gets to control Whom.

danairozo: You are right. These threads can get pretty far afield. When folks start their jingoistic rantings (like ikorrellim) I usually take the bait. In this French Forum, I would like to be able to proscribe the notion that we can learn a lot from the French that would benefit our nation. We should not put up with lousy schools and poor infrastructure. When I see fellow citizens (like iorrellim) pounding the tomtoms of belligerance and intolerance, it is just very disappointing. Again, pointing up the weaknesses in our education system. So, that said, what do you think of the SmartCar coming to the USA? Donerail

I saw a number of those Smart Cars in Paris last April. I might have seen a couple in Munich, too. I drove a small but reliable Mercedes 160A in Munich and liked it…it was two-door and small enough. The Smart Car looked "Easy-to-Park". But, Donerail, I don’t know if Big SUV drivers in Calif. or anywhere in the USA would always see or "want to see" those Smart Cars. If gas prices went to 98cents a Quart here too, there could be some big envy rage, or California-SUV-superiority Rage. The Smart Car folks in Europe, are assuming other drivers also have small cars and are rational, sober and courteous. As far as Maps, Yes..I like Via Michelin a lot and others you mentioned. But, I never stole an 11FF item in my travels (oops, that Cannes postcard…..)

danairozo: Your right about the SUV mentality in this country. I think I know why that happens here. The policy of our Government (and the people governed) allows it to happen. If traffic lanes were 18 inches narrower (as they are in Europe) and if gas was 3-4x what it is today, I have to believe we would have smaller and more durable cars and a viable rail system. In this country we have such a maternalistic attitude towards things that should be left along. If some one jumps from a bridge, we erect fences to make it more difficult. Some of these actions are necessary but most are not. We see signs like: "low flying aircraft," "slippery when wet," "deaf child," etc etc on our highways. Did we really need that guidance? Maybe someday we’ll catch on to the European intelligence. Donerail

Look!

Ah, I think this all is way off the supject. What is the secret about whats going on in France. I just want to know thats all. I’m just wanting to know about their local politics. That’s all!

Amero-Franc: You’re drifting and not making much sense. Perhaps it is that nice French wine kicking in. Donerail

May be the reason why you can’t answer the question is because there is no more politics in France anymore. May be the E.U. does everything importmant. The last time I heard was the only thing that the French Government was left doing was trying to put some- ban on head-gear.

So, angain posabily why it’s so hard to answer the question is becase quite frankly because there is no real French government anymore.

Or perhaps you could put me straight?

Julien was the only one who really answered my question.

I personally like the French Government. I like the President of France and their leaders who represent them at the UN. I like how Chirac gets along well with the Chancellor of Germany. I like being in Paris and all ….that’s all I know I guess. The road are smooth and people there are respectful. I like the People, politicians and the fruit vendors all over France.

amero-frand: danairozo says it best. the french and their infrastructure are first class. the ban on scarfs is a tragedy but that will be cured in time. donerail

donerail,

Wether the ban on the Head-gear was right or wrong, doesn’t it seem kind of petty for a national Government to be goofing around on something like this? I really don’t know how anyone could inforce it. What if someone just likes wearing Sullcaps, but if he’s a Jew it’s not okay. It’s just stupid. I would guess this ban would be on good luck charms ass well since Superstition is a religion. No more fuzzy dice! No more shirts with Shamrocks! What I’m trying to say is, how can one inforce it.

I’m sure those guys is Paris are getting paid for this and they’re using your money.

Ameri-Franco:

I would like to know if this ban on head scarves and other religious symbolism might not have something to do with the again growing anti-semitism in Europe (i.e., France, Germany)? I was surprised to learn of the large Muslim population in France…and then of course, we have the Jews…Muslim’s sworn enemy? Would you care to elaborate?

Hey….Wine? you said Donerail…. I prefer Budweiser, and I buy Budweiser golf Shirts and LongNecks at the Holiday Inn. Maybe it is Petite Sirah from Sonoma in Northern California he is Imbibing in?
And then again, if its really Sutter Home "traded-fill in" grapes then maybe he is drinking Pouilly Fuisse from B&G. But I love the Budweiser Clydesdales as much as I like Santa Cruz

Danairozo: I hope he is imbibing a Sonoma or Napa beverage. Or, if he is really civilized a nice Bordeaux red or Burgundy white. In time, you will develop your palate and wean yourself away from Bud. A trip though any good wine growing region (No. Cal, Oregon, Washington, or France) will expedite the change. You are right about the Clydesdales, they rule. Donerail

donerail: a good mousseux with some chambord is the best to inbibe..long live kir royales

danairozo: smart cars rulez! they’re the funniest things i’ve ever seen! i’d love to see them here in my city, would certainly solve the parking problem, there’d be enough space on the street for ALL..death to the SUV!

Well…I didn’t really say "Death to the GM SUVs". I like the Tahoe..my golf buddy, Tom, is a State Farm agent (ret. and receiving) HE, always gets one of those Bronze or Forest Green ones every so often. Because he has the downstate Illinois Company logo on the Back, the SUV is "cheap". He said he doesn’t Tailgate often…(though he has impeded a couple of
Railroad Crossing violaters by the Course). And, actually, LaVielle Branche, I pense the French Renault SUV is way too much car for me. It looks just like a Honda Embassy…or Impaler or whatever its is.

ikorrellim,

Frist of all I’m not so sure how much of this is religious symbolism and how much of this is just pactacality. For an example, in Russia the women just like to wear a head scarf, I would quess to keep the hair out of their face. The more they try to bann it the more religious the Muslims might try to make it.

Secondly, I’m not really sure how much of this is ati-semitism. From what I gather alot of people in France think it’s denagrading to women, so they tryed to bann it in schools. THen the muslems say it’s not fair that the Jews get to wear their thing, but
we don’t.

I really don’t understand how this is denagranding to women, especially if they want to. It’s not like that head gear that looks like a bee keepers hat that they wore in Afganistan. It’s just a scarf they threw over their head. There are even some sects of Jews that wear thoses and they’ve been there for a long time and I think they have a right to stay.

I think what this is really about is that they don’t like them enfrenging and changing their culture.

Look, if you don’t like a culture don’t put rules on them and bann them; just deport them. It may be that someone else likes them.

danairozo: i dont drive SUV..i have a small Saturn SL1..9.5 years old, more than 150,000 miles and still going strong that car drove me to Tulsa OK, Charleston SC and back home to NJ 4 summers ago with NO problems plus it has clean air technology/zero emissons on it (additional cost back then). I will buy another one in a few years, if i feel i need to.

As for this Muslim scarf thing, it is none of America’s business. It is a French situation, an internal situation in their country. It is none of our business to get involved. I don’t see France getting involved on our business with the flag salute in public schools and the phrase "one nation, under GOD." They dont make international comments on it because it is none of their business. Likewise, it is none of our business on what happens there.

If Americans bothered to study up on their French history/culture for the past 100 years, they’d know the reason anyways for the French ruling on the head scarf problems.

LaVielleBranche: Americans just can’t help themselves when it comes minding other peoples’ business. It distracts us from having to confront our own country’s problems. Donerail

LaVieilleBranche,

I do think this is an international issue; between France and people from muslum states who are imagrating.

Look, the last time we tryed to ignore what Europe did to their minorities, 6 Million Jews died. + however many Gypsies, Slavs, and Serbs.

And yes we didn’t only ignore what was happening, but Hitler offered to give them to us and we (yes we elected Roosevelt) turned down the offer.

Donerail,

No, I don’t think the avrage american even knows whats going on in France. I’m not saying it’s good or bad I’m just saying they just don’t know.

Amero-Franc: I do not disagree with you. I don’t think the average American knows or understands what is happening in their own country. Donerail

amero-franc: no, it is NOT an international issue…it only became an international issue when Bush made an inappropriate comment about it…otherwise, it never would of attracted the attention of our own media here in the USA.

If you knoew anything about French history you’d know that France is a secular state. Religion plays NO part in their public educational system (read what happened between France and the Catholic Church about 100 years ago and then you’ll know why). As a result, NO religios symbol may be displayed in PUBLIC school. A muslim head scarf IS a religious symbol, and therefore has NO place in public education in France.

It is offensive to see people move to France, then try to tell France how to run their government. If you don’t like the government, then don’t move there, it is that simple.

Would you want the French moving to the USA and then tell everybody that we should speak French in public schools??? i don’t think so…(please feel free to sub some other group in there if you don’t want french as example).

If it wasn’t for this stupid rift between Bush and France, you’d probably have never heard about the muslim problem in France. Most Americans never even knew that France had a muslim population until Bush made his remarks.

donerail: Most Americans are "legends in their own mind"…if you know what i mean….

Thank goodness not ALL of us are as ignorant as that though.

donerail : By the way, when you get a chance, check out my online photo album of France:
http://gallery.completecomputing.com/denise

feel free to download any photo that interests you… more photos will be going in there when i have time over Easter maybe.

Very good points, LaVielle….I don’t know enough about what happened 100 years ago..I know how the Catholic Church does some things and has some twists and turns. I have been an Usher for the past 10 years. In Notre Dame last March, I loved it inside there…and Mass and the Sermon were very serious. I saw all the candles and the Vaults of the early
Bishops. And, then I saw the Statue of St. Joan of Arc and I read the inscription…it was a somber place and not one candle. And yes, the Church and its humans had trouble with her, and Luther, and sent Crusades. I realize there is more to this than I know from school.
—also, I was one of the first Saturn sales consultants and I had a training in Springhill, Tn., a fabulous plant. You have done well with your SL1. It has great gas mileage, too. I see now that GM ads are now treating Saturn as an equal and not as the R&D wing.

LaVieilleBranch: Thanks! Great photos on that website of your’s. I particularly liked the Christmastime photos and those storefronts. I have taken rolls of film on storefronts. Those displays are works of art in themselves. Two years ago at Easter, Laduree’s in Paris had a four foot tall solid chocolate egg in the window. I had to be restrained. Donerail

i am french and it seem to me that in rural areas are more conservative but also the south of france; toulouse, montpellier at least for in comparisons to paris et the north. but of course cities are usually more liberal than rurals and conservatives in france i believe are more liberal than conservatives in américa. le pen received 17% of the vote and the strong majority went to chirac.
as for the scarf issue; france never had a temperence movement and is a secular state and does not permit religious symbols in state faciliites, in schools they are free and secular

Amer-Franco:

That was my intention also…to learn about their politics. Because of the French position on Iraq, I got curious about France. I don’t think you are drifting…I think you would rather talk about other things than expound upon the glories of France and their small cars and rail system; namely, their political agenda. Donerail: We have SUV’s because we like them, they are good transportation for "soccer Mom’s", etc. and cross country trips for those who care to have one. I sometimes wonder why you live here…you seem to have your loyalties in France…Have you ever thought about moving there…Perhaps retiring…Also, you seem to have a negative opinion about other state’s senators, as if you were on the Senate floor at all times listening…I would be very interested to know what northern state you live in and who your senators are and what positive contributions they have made to your state and to the nation as a whole…

France has wine, cheese…they are very proud of these products…Personally, I don’t see a whole lot of difference in them compared to other wines, cheeses, but we all must be somewhere and be proud of something…

Donerail: If anybody is drifting it is you…perhaps you are thinking too much about your upcoming trip in April to glorious France…

P.S. I do have a question of interest to me…how come 19,000 people died in the heat wave of last summer, 15,000 from France…Do they not have air conditioning? Is it a luxury item or they just don’t believe in them…

LaVieilleBranche,

What quote by Buch were you talking about? I think if he said anything about it most Americans would know about what is going on over there. Perhaps Bush is fluent it French as well as Spanish and only spoke to the French press.

I know all about France being secular. In fact theyre religiously secular. I really mean that secularism is their religion. They see religions just as cultures.

If thier educational system is so secular, why are they defining what is religious? Like I’ve said before if some guy wears a scull cap it’s okay, but if he’s Jewish it’s not okay.

Ikorrellim: Welcome back! I hope you were ok and not ill or anything like that. I see you have not lost any of your boorishness. You are even a tad more insulting than I remember. Since you asked, I am from Massachusetts – the home state of Senators Kennedy and Kerry. Say what you want about Kennedy, but he has authored more legislation for the average American than any politician since Jefferson. (As you know, Jefferson, Franklin, etc learned a lot from the French.) Our other Senator is John Kerry. Senator Kerry, of course, will be our next President. I find it hard to compare those two to the likes of Strom Thurmond or Jesse Helms. I do hope you get rid of your SUV as it is simply excess consumption – something Americans must learn to deal with intelligently. The problem is we have too many folks like yourself who are not as informed as they should be. And yes, I do love LaFrance – its people, its land, and its culture. I would like to live there but I am not courageous enough to pull up stakes and actually do it. As for the tragedy of the heat of last summer in France, you should be ashamed of yourself for your comments. One thing that you can count on, the French infrastructure will be improved to deal more effectively with these tragic events in the future. And finally, ikorrellim, I am looking forward to spending some great time in La France in a few weeks from now. That glorious wine! The assortment of unbelievable cheeses! The fantastice service in restaurants! The impeccable Metro and TGV trains! The friendliness of the people! The great flair for fashion! The infrastructure that works! My only complaint is that it will cost me 50% more due to the brainless economic policies of the Bush administration. Take care of yourself, Donerail.

actually, I am a big Kennedy fan…have loved him and his brothers…I idolized JFK…wrote a poem about his death when he was taken down in Texas by ….let’s don’t get into that..

I do not own an SUV nor do I aspire to own on…I have an American car (GM)…I always try and buy American when I can…

The remark I made about the heat wave was not intended to be cruel…I was truly interested to know why…and was it because the people have no air conditioning and what is the reasoning behind that…is it too expensive? To put a box air conditioning in a window, I do not believe is that expensive…

I have heard from my friends who travel extensively in Europe and elsewhere that by our standards, we would consider the Europeans poor…so I am assuming, since you did not give me an educated or mature answer that they cannot afford the air conditioning…is this true? It is an honest question…

I hope instead of just trying to win friends and influence people on this site that you are out there actively campaigning for Kerry in this upcoming election…Talk is cheap…actions speak louder than words…I did heard Kennedy on CSPAN the other day say that Mass had over 400,000 voters to turn out and that they were young voters…that is good…never let the idealogy of the young go unnoticed or uncounted in a vote…

As far as our senators…they vote the way their constituents want them to vote…just as yours do…that is the way they keep getting re-elected…Kerry has a good chance in the south because he is closest to the beliefs of the majority of the deep south in his convictions, i.e., jobs, health care, guns, he was a military hero (which we love and think all men and now women should give back to their country), he has religious convictions, he is against gay/lesbian marriages…by the way did you know that Dick Cheney’s daughter Mary is Gay and has a six figured income working on the Vice Presidential campaign…She keeps a low profile…I guess so she can keep her six figured income…Bush has put quite a few of his gay/lesbian friends into office…Cheney was for the gay/lesbian cause until the president went the other way…and of course, now he is "for what the President wants"…

I can see why you want Kerry to win now…Most states that own a president or vice president get the "pork"…perhaps they can get rid of some of those disgusting roads and buildings called "inner city" homes…Unfortunately, the North was built using Europe as a model…Row Homes…one right next to the other, crowded tenant houses, and just people stacked on top of people…I understand the reasoning…a lack of space…however, now it is the custom up North to move (with government tax dollars the Section 8’s) out into the suburbs…and now they have overrun lots of suburban areas and turned into the same thing they had in the city…trash everywhere, houses looking pitiful…and congregating on corners to "talk"…also, they brought their drugs with them…

Well, I think I have let you see my perception of the North more than you care to see…remember, I lived there for a time…in rural Baltimore County…used to be nice…now it is taken over by the Section 8’s as I mentioned…and those people who I have known forever have moved or are trying to sell their properties so that they can settle elsewhere…most to move down south…to clean air, decent roads, affordable housing with more than a postage stamp for a yard…and a distance from neighbors…Unfortunately, quite a few of the "undesirables" have decided to look to the south for greener pastures and our crime rate has gone up…

Enjoy your trip to France…and if you were in the military I am sure you have heard, "No guts, no glory"…If you want something like living in France…give it a shot…you can always come back if it does not suit you…regards…

To answer the question about air conditioning . . . There are two things involved. First, it seldom gets hot enough to need air conditioning in France. The south of France would be the most logical place to need it and they usually leave their windows open and get nice breezes. Last summer was an unusually extended and super hot heat wave . . . not at all the norm.

Secondly, electricity is much more expensive in France than the US so they try very hard to conserve energy. Keep in mind that all their oil is imported. The govt. helps by keeping prices up so people will be motivated to conserve energy. (I know that is anathema to US residents, but it works there and it’s not your problem.) Air conditioning is readily available, it’s just not usually necessary so most people don’t bother. A couple more summers like last summer and I bet a few people will have it installed!

I can think of absolutely no reason why your "extensively traveled friends" would think Europeans more poor than we are. They have the same standard of living we have. Yes, there are poor people there, but there are plenty here too. Most Europeans choose to live a different life style than we do, but that doesn’t make them poor. They use public transportation more than we do but they have a good choice of public transport. Unless you live in a large city in the US, your public transport choices are somewhat limited. They have supermarkets just like we do. They also have their wonderful markets in nearly every city and village. They drive smaller cars but that is encouraged by their governments keeping fuel prices high. We should have the same problem!!

I would be most interested to hear what is perceived as "more poor" by your friends. Europeans have a better choice of food in markets and restaurants; a better choice of beverages in markets and in restaurants; have a wide choice of private vehicles including SUVs if they want them; have a wide choice of entertainment; have housing costs similar to ours; have a wide choice of clothing. They do usually choose to have a smaller number of more expensive clothing items than we do, but that’s a cultural choice. I might add that hotels in Europe offer much better value for money than in the US. I wouldn’t stick my head in a hotel in this country that is as inexpensive as the French hotels . . . and theirs are much nicer at the price. I don’t think you could even find a room in the US at French prices.

The next time your friends mention "poor" Europeans, ask them to be specific. I’m just curious because I haven’t noticed it and I’ve been there a lot.

"poor Europeans"…where? Definitely saw none in Cannes. Maybe average guarded folks in Ventimiglia..But that is just over the border into
Axis area? Scusi, I mean Italia. I know Italy has the highest per cap. income in Europe, now. I know France has been welcoming people from up the Canary Island coast too much for its own Budget…France has been welcoming..and donating big Statues far too much. I never once in Paris heard French people or their visitors swear about 98cent a Quart gasoline….

how nice to see the forum alive and well with debate! it was getting stuffy here for a few weeks!

Amero-Franc: I am referring to the comment Bush made in the media about French head scarves, he made that remark in January or February, I believe..i remember it quite well. The next day Chirac told Bush to mind his own business, the French don’t comment on our plege of allegience with the phrase "one nation under God" because it isn’t their place…or maybe you forgot about this…or maybe your media didn’t report this…but up here in the NYC region we hear everything….

you said <Like I’ve said before if some guy wears a scull cap it’s okay, but if he’s Jewish it’s not okay.> actually this is false. jews and muslims wear their religious garb in the streets and it is fine…they just cannot wear it in PUBLIC SCHOOL…the keyword here being PUBLIC SCHOOL….

danairozo: i will definately buy another saturn when my old one gets to the 200,000 mile mark…i’m still on the original clutch, too i LOVE their 3 door sports car model…really COOL to have a hidden door ..butlooking at the price…probably get another SL1 because they’re not that expensive and are great cars only this time i want a sunroof

donerail: i was in paris last year at easter…easter sunday mass at Notre Dame 🙂 the food and wine are decadent i’m a happy girl when my plane lands and i can get a petit cafe dans un petit cafe 😉

donerail: let me know where you’re going in france…i know lots of nice places…i can give you restaurant suggestions…great places to eat, drink and be merry and NOT expensive at all, even with the lousy dollar right now!! i go to france for 2 months every year and i can help you to save money.. i know the ins and outs of how to get a discount here and there and where to exchange money at a competitive rate with NO commission charge…just let me know…

Ikorrellim: i believe i can answer your air conditioning question for you…it is NOT hot in france at all in summer…paris temperatures are mild with low humidity..maybe 75 degrees during the day and cool at night..you need to wear a jacket at night in the summer…it is NEVER hot at all…in the Jura mountain region, people have fires going in their fireplaces in the summer to keep their homes warm in july….the ONLY place that gets hot is the south, such as provence, etc..but they have air conditioning there…lack of air conditioning in paris is NOT about money..the french are NOT poor..itis just that the machines weren’t readily available as they are here in usa…

there was an air conditioning store at place denfert-rochereau, but they sold out their entire stock right away when the heat wave came in….

also..there is a city law that says you cannot cut a hole in an exterior apartment to have an air conditioning box hanging out the wall…becuase it is UGLY!..it would ruin the appearance of the buildings…you CAN have an air conditioning unit if you have a courtyard apartment because the walls don’t face the street…but if your apartment faces the street, then use a fan..which people do everythwere….as i said…this heatwave isn’t normal….this was a total freak situation..

i know well.. i was in france for 6 weeks last summer and i was there in paris for the entire heatwave…it was TERRIBLE…truely TERRIBLE…104 degrees int he shade..my apartment was a furnace at nights…i went to the jura to escape the eat and it was getting hot there as wwell, and the people were becoming ill from the heat..it is not in their blood to take this heat…

as for SUV, i drove cross country and back again with my little Saturn SL1 and NO problems at all…great gas milage and very reliable…the SUV sux! it suckd down gasoline like it was going out of style and can emit up to 5 times more pollution than a car and still pass inspection…SUV are the scourge of the earth…no thanks…

LaVielleBranche: Yes, some SUVs are bad…Honda makes good ones….no huge Recalls, good gas Mileage on the CR-V..pretty safe when Hit by a chevy pickup when you’re hit by a drunk, mad "person" who like its Cell phone more than your life…..

The new Saturn L100 might be a Lot of car…but if it needs parts, like my Hyundai Sonata did…and a Head Gasket takes 4 weeks to get from the North or South end of Korea…then watch it. And, as a Saturn consultant, I was told NOT to talk about the SL2 model’s Inability to have Snow Chains put on it’s front wheels… a design oversight. Only the SL1 from 90-97 can take Snow chains…I know, some states don’t allow chains..only those knobbies….Flatlander states

danairozo: thanks for the info on the saturns…mine is a 1993 or 1994…i forget…i love the thing..they dont make cars like that… and i won’t drive Japanese..sorry 😉 i’d rather buy a renault than drive japanese…(and i used to drive renault, too)

LaVieilleBranche: Thank you for the offer. The itenerary so far is: 2 nights in Lyon, 3 nights in LeTortenez (near Faverges/Annecy), 3 nights in Ozenay (northwest of Macon), 1 night undecided, and 2 nights in Paris. Thanks again.

ikorrellim: As indicated before, if it wasn’t for the gift of sunshine from Mother Nature, the South would be nothing but tobacco plantations. Your support of our favorite son, John Kerry, worries me.

regards, donerail

I owned an ’85 Renault Encore for a good price used. I got it at Howard Pontiac just outside Chicago. It had a sunroof (manual) and was white and I should have Re-Habbed it when I got to Calif. The Automatic Trans in that 1.7 engine…went to Sequoia Park and down…it just would not
Break. It didn’t have the Safety Cage that Saturns have. Thank goodness I didn’t Dent the Renault as it didn’t have the Polymers that the Saturn has. I changed my own oil on the Renault often…just regular Craftman tools… regular Sylvania headlight bulbs. I wish I could get a Volvo V 40 in Porte d’Italia reelly.

Oh…I forgot… The Saturn engines (both the 80hp one and the 124 hp one) are Stamped, yes, in that beautiful Springhill plant south of Nashville… The Stamping machine is Big and Blue and would sell for about 100 million euros. But, that Huge machine which also does some Transmission parts, is in Springhill, TN. leased from a firm in Osaka,
Japan

Sorry, no tobacco plantations…not much cotton or rice plantations either…as a matter of record…there are no plantations anymore…just for tourist attractions that the Yankees seem to like to spend their money on…Your comment about my support of Kerry worries ME about YOU…I believe in giving both parties a chance to state their case…then I make a decision…I am still undecided…However, I do know a good politician when I see one…and of course Kerry is a Vietnam Era Vet…just like me and you…by the way, where did you spend your service time and what was your MOS? You sound like such a "whoos" that I can almost guess you were behind the lines conjuring up ways to serve French Cuisine to the troops…

As stated earlier, you bear such witness for Kerry, I do hope you practice what you preach and get out and volunteer to help his campaign…look under Kerry.com and you will see a site where you can volunteer your time…After all, your "pork" is at stake…perhaps mine too…as I see Edwards is getting a lot of support for VP…however, I still don’t think SC will go democratic…but, with Edwards on the ticket…and Kerry…a war hero which we love…15% of SC is comprised of retired military personnel…and another at least 20% are Active Duty…You definitely sound more like a Republican yuppie than a Democrat…whatever your opinion of the South is…that is your opinion…and opinions are like a–holes, everybody’s got one, especially Yankee "Whoos’s"…

LaVielle Branche, Donairozo and SalB, Ameri Franco:

Thank you very much for your information on my question(s). It is always nice to get informative and intelligent feedback.

Can someone tell me…when was Chirac elected and when will he be up for re-election? And do you see the French people re-electing him?
Also, does he have a formadible opponent?

LaVielle Branche: Almost bought a Saturn, but went with Pontiac Grand Am…2003…so far, so good…no problems as yet, knock on wood…good gas mileage…

LaVieilleBranche,

First of all, except for news junkies, I think that Chirac was just speaking into the wind with the French people behind him. He’s just trying to rally his people behind him.

Secondly, why can we not talk about it? It’s not like Bush is sending the troops over there to liberate France. He’s just stating what he thought.

Thirdly, is it our bussness or is it not? Before WWII, most people in America thought that Hitler was just a harmless racest leader. Later Europe was trying to just the U.S. to stop him, but we just thought we’ld keep out of your bussiness.

You see, sooner or later some lunitics are going to ask Bush if he thinks we should adopt France’s policy. He just said he thought Frances policy was crooked.

Also, When I said skull caps I was not refering to people who wear them for religious reasons. Some people wear them because they think they are cool groovy or what ever. You see those would would be okay, but If someones thinks may be it’s because of religiion it’s not okay.

By doing this they’re getting more involved in religion, because they need to say what is religious. Really it’s a thought-crime because they need to quess wether the person is thinking religously about their own piece of clothing.

Amero-Franc: I hope you are not interrupting LaVieilleBranche while she is finding those great restaurants and wine and cheese stores.

Ikorrellim: Your general lack of intelligence has been fairly entertaining to the Forum. Your lack of tolerance, however, is not as entertaining but is still very relevant to the Forum subject. Perhaps you would care enough to take a few minutes to elaborate on some of your thoughts. Specifically, tell us more about: (1) "Section 8’s" as you call them; (2) the economic benefit to the Nation of the "pork" that you so admire; (3) why you would denigrate people who served in the Armed Forces during Vietnam or any other period by referring to them as "Whoos’s" (your word); and, finally (4) what drives your proclivity towards all things military? Now for the best entertainment, ikorrellim, based upon your knowledge and experience, what countries do you think have a higher standard of living than our’s? And how do you think they may have achieved that? I look forward to this new chapter in enlightenment. I hope you don’t decide to "whoos-out" on me. Regards, Donerail

donerail:

I said YOU were a whoos…not military personnel…even though you served in the military, in your decade you had not many choices, sans running to Canada…or spending some jail time…If it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, walks and talks like a duck, then it’s a duck…or in your case a Whoos…

Ameri-Franco:

Apparently, Europe thought Hitler was harmless too…until it was too late…Thanks for the reminder of history…History has a habit of repeating itself, especially if people become lackaidaisical in their attitudes…or "how soon we forget."…

Donerail:

If you are as "brillant" as you try to protray yourself to be…then an "uneducated" (your words) person like myself should not have to explain anything like Section 8 or Pork…you should immediately know…you are very educated…so you say…I have noticed on this forum that when someone does not agree with you that you immediately refer to them as uneducated…Very interesting…I have not heard you say anything of consequence yet on this forum except to praise the French wine and cheese industry…Thank God they have that to hang on to…

ikorrellim: I wish I could compose my messages to you in the French language. That would maybe help both of us – but, alas, I am not fluent in French. I am not as brilliant as I thought I was either. I thought for sure you would answer the questions that I asked and not "whoos-out" the way you did. Maybe you just don’t have the courage of your convictions or maybe you just like to pontificate. But – the depth of your defensiveness and your caustic invective towards me was still very much entertaining. By the way, I didn’t say you were uneducated (not recently, anyway) as you said you have had a Southern education. I just pointed out that you don’t seem too intelligent. Now I suppose you will want to excoriate me for pointing that out. Regards, Donerail

Well,

I’m not saying that Chirac is a Hitler. He doesn’t hardly have the corisma that Hitler had, however, Evil don’t usuially come in exactly the same form.

As a side note; one thing that I really can’t understand is alot of Frenchmens objection to our phraze, "one nation under God." Would you rather us say, "one nation over God."

Doen’t Germany still use the phraze, "Deuchland Uber Alles"(Germany Over All)

I’ve finially came to the conclution that if you want freedom of Religion go to America, But if you want freedom of lifestile (just as long as there’s no religion invulved) go to the Peoples Republic of France.

Amero-Franc:
1) chirac was not just "speaking into the wind" as you would say…bush made a negative comment about an internal french situation and chirac responded in kind…which chirac had every right to do. If bush has the right to say what he thinks, then so does chirac…if you say otherwise, then you should welcome yourself into the hyprocrate’s school of thought.

2) no it is NOT our business and does NOT concern us about the muslims in france! chirac is NOT hitler, and to compare him to hitler is extremely offensive..get your butt OUT of world war2 and come into the 21st century…or maybe your brain can’t think that far ahead.

3) bush says france policy is crooked?? how about Bush’s detained prisoners in guantonamo bay for 2 years with no political rights at all? how about declaring an AMERICAN an enemy comatent (jode padillo) and denying him his constitutional rights?? (thank goodness the courts partially overturned that one).

4) you said <Also, When I said skull caps I was not refering to people who wear them for religious reasons. Some people wear them because they think they are cool groovy or what ever. You see those would would be okay, but If someones thinks may be it’s because of religiion it’s not okay. > <–this is the point..religion plays NO place in PUBLIC SCHOOL…you wanna celebrate your religion, go to PRIVATE SCHOOL, or go to your church/synogogue/mosque/temple to mithras/whatever…and NO people in france don’t wear skullcaps around for fashion statements. in france, people have culture and style. men dont go around wearing skullcaps for a fashion statement becuase those things are NO fashion statement..and teenage girls do NOT dress like britney spears…it is considered lewd…

spend an extended amount of time in france every year as i do, and you might actually LEARN something..if you’re capable…

donerail: naaaa he’s not interrupting me…gullible people are alwyas entertaining, remember that in your dealings with "others"
donerail i know some good places to eat in paris..reasonable prices, even at $1.25 to 1 euro, with wonderful ambience and great service. 🙂 i been going there for 20 years now, and the food is always good there is even a little brasserie near my apartment that serves breakfast/lunch (no dinner). it’s like old france…workers, studetns, etc.. go there to eat, drink coffee and smoke up a storm..owners are cool

donerail: here are a few useful things: water is FREE in restaurants/cafes..french law, the bar/resto owner CANNOT deny you a glass of FREE water when having coffee or a carafe when having a meal…you ask for a ‘CARAFE D’EAU" and you get free water…or else they will try to sell you bottled stuff, if you don’t know the law most american tourists buy water, because they dont know any better…another thing…a little expresso costs 1 euro if you drink it at the bar, or 2+euros if you sit down and drink it…look on the bar/brasserie wall for the sign posted…salle/comptoir…salle = room comptoir = counter…prices are higher if you go into the salle, the room to sit…i have coffee every day there in mid afternoon at the comptoir, i pay 1 euro..same with wine…i alwo have a sandwich at the counter, it’s about 50% cheaper if you stand and eat it…at lunch, go into a tiny corner brasser and look inside…you see all the guys drinking/eating at the bar? it’s much cheaper that way, ths is why they do it…and ALL corner brasseries are good…really…that is why they are crammed with people at lunch..brasseries are the real belly of paris..egalitarian eateries with high quality food at reasonable prices…if ya want, you can email me with questions, and i’ll help you out as best i can 🙂

LaVieilleBranche,

You misunderstand my point. I am quite sure there is quite a large prisintage of Afracans who live in France. They wear skull caps for reasons other than religious reasons. My point was that it’s okay for them to wear it only because of their thohught of the cap.

So, let’s say for religious reasons someone wears clothes because he thinks that walking around naked in sinful, Therefore, This person must go to school naked because he wears clothes for religious reasons.

Don’t you see how stupid this is.

LaVieilleBranche: Your wire brushing of Amero-Franc was priceless. The poor kid. That was an interesting statement, however, that was made to the effect: "If you want religious freedom come to America. If you want real freedom, come to France." Thanks for those tips with regard to the restaurants, brasssieries, and water. I was familiar with the counter versus table pricing. Knowing these little nuances of culture is very helpful, indeed. I would be interested in Paris restaurant recommendations. So far we have eaten at Balone d’Ternes, Bofingers, Tour d’Argent, Maison Blanche, and a number of corner brassieries and places in the Mouffetard. The Tour d’Argent was nice but it almost broke the bank. They had a wine list the size of an encyclopedia. It was an incredible experience, however. My wife had one of those ducks with a serial number. Amazing. Is your email address on here somewhere? Donerail

donerail,

What on Earth are you talking about. You just got though saying you didn’t like this Scraf bann. You said:

"amero-frand: danairozo says it best. the french and their infrastructure are first class. the ban on scarfs is a tragedy but that will be cured in time. donerail" (2nd page 3rd post and don’t try to click the edit button. We all can see when you change it.)

Amero-Franc: you’re showing your ignorance again! the africans living in france do NOT just walk around the streets wearing skull caps! most of them speak fluent french as well as their african language (how many languages do YOU speak besides english?), come from (past french dominated) africa and are some of the most polite, refined and respectful men i’ve seen! certainly they are more polite and elegant than many americans i’ve encountered, including YOU..

you said "So, let’s say for religious reasons someone wears clothes because he thinks that walking around naked in sinful, Therefore, This person must go to school naked because he wears clothes for religious reasons." <–the basic student uniform of jeans/tee shirt has nothing to do with ANY religion. However, head scarves/burquas/chadors are all forced upon women by men for supposed religious modesty. and speaking about religion, the USA has bans on religions in public schools, too..or have you forgot? or maybe by chance you never went to school?

you always say " I am quite sure" this and " I am quite sure" that…but you’re quite surenes is always quite WRONG…

donerail: you can email me at cremepouf@hotmail.com i know some nice places…and they have web sites so you can check out the menu before you go… i can recommend some interesting choices..if you’re in paris for 2 nights, i can recommend a pierrade one night and second night, a fondu followed by a grole 🙂 you haven’t lived unti you’ve shared a grole a bit expensive but worth it…and go to the savoyard tourist shop and you can buy a wodden grole for about $24 all hand made and redo the beverage yourself…they have online recipies

Yes, Amer-Franc, I still think France is first-class. I sure hope they can organize against another Hot, killing summer. I know Italy and other countries suffered, too. Yes, I loved seeing and chatting with many African-French in Paris banks and such….but some big males were so in need of Showers and deodorant and manners…not too many. Then there are some "regular French" who try to ask you a question by the Metro while their Asinine buddy tries to steal your flight bag.
…..make no bones about it..I was badly mugged once and was lucky to live in west section of Chicago one night in 1988. I lost a lot of trust for Black people..esp. Men as a result for a long time. And, now, many want to come in and migrate to my nice town here in Calif…well, guess what Turkeys…act nice, don’t mug and you can stay here…or go to Algeria or Fresno….I have become very intolerant (and I know that many Religious left or right wing, god-loving Spaniards are going to have the same feelings for a good while).

donerail: the tour d’argent, etc…are TOO expensive! and too many tourists/celebs there…i’ll send you to where the real french people eat and drink…it’s more fun there because you see average french people living their lives just as americans do

donerail: thanks for the comment under the photo 🙂 i was in tulsa, OK last october for a weekend, visiting my friend Tamara. we were in some strip mall bar in tulsa and she took my photo…that glass had courvoisier in it..fine french cognac

Donerail:

There you go again…assuming…and you know what that spells…if you’re as brillant as you think you are…I graduated from Kenwood Sr. High School in Essex, Maryland and attended the University of Maryland at College Park on a fully paid four year scholarship…sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, so much for your "assume"…I did not answer your nonsense…I did not feel that I wanted to waste my time on trying to explain anything to anyone as "brillant" as you…

LaVieilleBranche,

You said, "head scarves/burquas/chadors are all forced upon women by men for supposed religious modesty"

You just proved my point; this isn’t really about being "secular." This is about the French thinking that the women are being mistreated. This all is really orcastated by the racest French Politiciens and to the public is being shown as a good will to these women. They just hate semetic cultures.

I think our problem is that we see a culture where people are being mistreated, so we automaticly think their culture is bad and ours is spotless and all good every last bit of it and every last bit of yourss is bad. I don’t mean to offend you, but you seem to be showing alot a racism.

As to how many languages I speak; if you look back I was banned from speaking French by the Admin. I’m also teaching myself some Semetic Langyuages on my own Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, etc. (which I’m sure you wouldn’t stoop to learn)

Okay I’ll give you one thing Arabic was currupted by the Koran. After Muhammad Arabic changed in many ways because he wasn’t very educated, so he used sort of a hill-billy reginal dialect. Since the Koran became wide spread it changed Arabic forever. That is why today Muslems will tell you the Koran is so Gramaticly correct. They’re using a rubber ruler.

Anyway I find Semetic cultures facenating, I quess partially because that’s where civilazation began.

amero-franc: since when did religious modesty have anything to do with french thinking women are being mistreated?? have you ever been to the Vatican? have you ever been to ANY european catholic church? they have rules of dress for entry, which are very modest, ESPECIALLY AT THE VATICAN..but then again..you’re probably one of the tourists i saw being turned away for wearing immodest clothes in a house of God..

maybe you don’t understand what secular means…secular = absence of religion.. head scarves in muslim religion ARE religious, hence SACRED, just as JEWISH skullcaps and CHRISTIAN crosses are. maybe you don’t see the difference. if the french were being racist then they were being racist to themselves, as large christian crucifixes were also banned and have been already banned since early 1900’s – but then again, you either don’t know about that or don’t really care…your sympathies lie with muslims and arabs. Tell me, from what Middle East country (including israel) does your family come from?

USA has separation of religion and schools for the same reason. you cannot have an environment condusive to learning when you’re arguing about religion in the schools. Imagine a scenario where EVERY religion had a place in public school… now, let’s do hannukah, christmas, easter, purim, ramadan, some hindu ceremonies, and while you’re at it, throw in some wicca, satanism, and santoria, never mind all the blood-letting of the animal sacrifice in santoria…that is "cultural" that is respecting "minority rights"…never mind the parents warring and fighting, because the catholics don’t want to participate in satanism, wicca and santoria…the jews don’t believe in jesus..the hindus with their various gods…and don’t forget the athiests, with no religion at all…you see the point? PUBLIC education is just that…PUBLIC and open to all, therefore no religion in public schools…keep religion out so that people of all faiths, backgrounds, ethnicities may attend and learn without distractions….

throughout the ages people have been warring about religion; romans throwing christians to the lions, the crusades, the inquisition, israel v. palestine/arabs, and islam v. western nations (including USA). it NEVER ends…:-(

amero-franc: you’re a typical american…never been overseas (canada doesn’t count), but wants to tell others how to live while having NO experience living among other cultures on a day to day basis…

you know how asia/europe sees the USA? they think we’re all obese (partly true), that we are violent because of the pro-gun laws, the chinese people have heard in vivid detail about the Columbine shootings in the schools and cannot fathom WHY it could even happen, they think we’re rude and arrogant when we visit (very true, i have examples), they think we’re a nation of processed/fast/hormone/antibiodic/bad food, that we’re greedy for money and oil and that we wish to export our "culture" of McDonalds, Starbucks, etc to their lands for the sole purpose of making money and dominating the world (very true). And let’s not even bring up Bill Gates, i haven’t met a single european who likes bill gates at all..

Long live the French for making a realistic and practical decision on public education in THEIR country! 🙂

Here Here, LaVielle…very well put..and all of it at least is non-fiction. I hope the Saturn is going smoothly…I am sorry I said what I did (I had no idea you were a lady until two days ago)….I am just here watching Charles Osgood CBS program Sunday A.M. Hope my Hyundai Sonata works today…$1900 and 4 weeks for a Head Gasket to be installed in a 1996 model!!! E-gads.
I was watching Gongaleeza Rice on Meet the Press for a bit…did she really go to Stanford? She is no George Schultz…or even Colin Powell.
Ikkorlim: I am sorry I was not sure of your writings…I did not know you are a U of M Terrapin Alum…congrats on that Basketball team last year…Mark McKuen talked about Maryland every day on the Weather….he is more opinionated that Willard. Sometimes, I am like Donerail…when I see a space-using Filibuster here, I just assume the worst…

PS: Amero-Franc…I am sure I said the infra structure was beautiful in France and the women were just amazingly nice..I loved to listen to some talk such beautiful French on the TGV or Metro….Blonde or Black-haired…… I don’t think it was a Tragedy at all for President Chirac or his Cabinet brass etc. to recommend a Law against the Headdresses by who ever. I am just glad that the UN Ambasador from France, a sensible man who got along well with Secty. Powell and PM Schroeder did Not trot out the old Guillotine for some people who are
abusing the Hospitality in All of France….America "Open Door" policy (Peking and HK not withstanding) has given us what we have.

danairozo: you didn’t know i was a lady? the usename LaVieilleBranche gives my gender away…or maybe you think that women like me cannot have brains (teasing joke) ? i can one up you..my daddy taught me how to do general maintenance on cars.. i always changed my own oil/filter/spark plugs, etc until i got the saturn…the oil filter is underneath and i cannot get to it. On my past 2 renaults, i could do oil/filter easily, i ordered a 8mm square drive wrench and filed it smooth on the sides so it would fit well in the oil drain plug

by the way, why are you apologising? you didn’t say anything that offended me personally…we all have a right to our opinions here, this is an open forum..

besides, it makes things more interesting, don’t you think?

amero-franc: chirac’s past competition was Le Pen, and NOT La Peine, which is something totally different…i’m suprised you’d make this kind of mistake in your first posting here, you said you speak french…

(pardon me while i laugh!)

Amero-Franc: Thanks for pointing out the edit feature. I didn’t realize editing was possible. My views towards the scarf have changed after listening to views of others – particulary LaVieilleBranche. I am now of the feeling that it basically none of my business. I just realized I had attributed a philosophical remark to you that you probably didn’t mean: "If you want religious freedom come to America. If you want real freedom, come to France." I will wait now for the next installment of LaVieilleBranch slapping you upside the head.

Ikorrellim: All of those institutions you cited were south of the Mason-Dixon line. You mentioned that you attended the Univ or Maryland. Did UM have a course of study on intolerance? Did you ever graduate? Donerail

donerail..i never said "If you want religious freedom come to America. If you want real freedom, come to France."
It was amero-franc who said this and I quote, "I’ve finially came to the conclution that if you want freedom of Religion go to America, But if you want freedom of lifestile (just as long as there’s no religion invulved) go to the Peoples Republic of France." he said this at the top of page 3 of this forum…

donerail it’s ok.. no harm done

donorail, i never slap people upside their head..i dont agree with violence..after all, the pen is mightier than the sword

donerail..i’m still waiting for that email.. cremepouf@hotmail.com

LaVieilleBrance: I didn’t really attribute that to you. (Scroll back up.) It was, indeed, Amero-Franc although I am not sure he (or she) recognizes how really profound it is. In any event, no harm done, as you have indicated. I sent the email, although this thing has been working strange lately since I signed up to McAfee security. Let me know here if you didn’t receive, thanks. Donerail

Yes, Oui, LaVielle..you one up me for sure. No, I never thought women had less brains or niceness, either. In high school, I was always captivated by intelligent, non-John Birch type women who liked Tennis and golf etc. I know your name gender says La, but I never know sometimes what is what on the Internet. I get fooled often in Yahoo and Talkcity. And, mais oui…vive la Difference in opinions here…

LaVieilleBranche,

Thank you for correcting me on "Le pen." I don’t know what I was thinking. I just got through reading a french article about his growing up in Burgandy I believe it is.

Anyway, you said, "Tell me, from what Middle East country (including israel) does your family come from?," "you’re a typical american," and "you’re probably one of the tourists i saw being turned away for wearing immodest clothes in a house of God.."

Well, with those assumtions, I’ll have to say that you got one out of three right. I’m an American, but of course you could of looked that up on my profile.

Actually My surname (direct male ancectry) has been in America since the mid 1700’s. Two of my great Grandfaters (father and son) served in the Revalution under Wasington (and by the way we are very greatful to France for their help). I am also part French Huguenot.(Yet another example of religous opression from France)

I am not a Muslem and as far as I know I do not have any Muslem blood. I only see how unfair they are beeing treated. You said crosses and Head coverings are religious. The difference is there is no where in the Bible that says that Christian need to wear a cross. If fact there are many Jewish and Christian denonanations that require women to cover their heads.

You see the French Government will have to define religion.

You also said, " we are violent because of the pro-gun laws, the chinese people have heard in vivid detail about the Columbine shootings in the schools and cannot fathom WHY it could even happen, they think we’re rude and arrogant when we visit (very true, i have examples),"

Ma’am, If guns were banned do you think that the shooters at Columbine would have obeyed the law? What if there was a law in place that would have required all the teachers to be armed? How far down the hall do you think those kids would have gotten.

"Teacher the-there’s two kids outside with guns shooting people"
"All right kids read page 132 untill I come back"
*Bam* *Bam*
"All right, I’m back kids."

No, we’re not seen as Gun nutts. In Switzerland ever household is required to have a fully automatic weapon. Ever check their crime rate? It’s close to zero.

Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!

amero-franc: you ARE a typical american..everybody is wrong if they don’t conform to "american" values. you dont look at a point of view from another country or political system, you just say "poor minorities" without knowing WHY things are done as they are done. And as your ancestry is in America since the 1700’s, i can safely say that you’re about as French as the pope is jewish…which just proves WHY i call you a typical american…

If you knew anything about Catholics, you’d know that covering the head with a small mantilla (lace scarf/doily) is OPTIONAL in european catholic CHURCHES and non-existant in american catholic CHURCHES. It’s been an OPTION since Vatican Council 2 in 1963. Note the keywords OPTIONAL and CHURCHES. Unlike our mulsim brethren, who FORCE women to wear them EVERYWHERE, EVERY DAY…but as a protestant, you’d not know this, because you’d actually have to open up a history book and READ something other than the "political correctness" trash that fills your meager brain.

Since you feel so sorry for arabs in france, why dont you move to an arab neighborhood outside of paris? i’m sure you’d survive maybe one or two weeks there before some arab youth knifed you for being non-arab (check the arab crime rates in those neighborhoods). better yet, move to the middle east. I’m sure a nice man named Osama could help you in your arabic studies. You could even convert to Islam and then force YOUR wife to wear a chador/burka and join the ranks of the real opressors.

I never said we ARE violent because of the pro-gun laws, i said europeans THINK we are violent because of the pro-gun laws…did you even bother to READ my post carefully? do you even KNOW how to read thoroughly?

Donerail:

Yes I graduated…did you? and from where? and it would be interesting to know what is your profession?

ikorrellim: I am really surprised to see that you graduated. You are to be commended – my sympathies to the University. My profession? I am a psychiatrist. It is my opinion that you are a paranoid schitzophrenic. There is no fee for that opinion.

LaVieilleBranche: I can see Amero-Franc in the turtle position waving the white flag. Seriously, though, I was in the 17er or 18er or 19er (- whatever the mideast/ arab area is) on market day last Spring and at first I felt very uncomfortable. Then I got caught up in the market atmosphere and had a ball. The people could not have been more friendly. And the olives, the shrimp, the cheese, etc. The people were just people. Just like us. Wanting to earn a living and enjoy life. Or so it seemed anyway. I never would have thought that had I not been there. Then again, maybe I was just lucky. Donerail

Actuially I wasn’t just refering to the pre Vatican II Catholics. And yes I know who they are. You keep on saying that it’s optional so it’s different. That is exactly what I have been trying to tell you; It’s not about trying to make school secular, because if it was they wouldn’t care about wether the hear scarf was optional or not. This is all about the French trying to liberate the Muslem women.

As you said, "Unlike our Mulsim brethren, who FORCE women to wear them EVERYWHERE,"

Look, your not going to change them this way. If you don’t like them just deport them.

For one thing, I don’t think you have a right to and another thing doing things like this to Muslems doen’t work.

You seem like you just can’t beleive that I’m not a Muslem. It’s like there’s just no way how could he posably relate.

Actually, I’m not a muslem. I’m a born again Christian. I just don’t like seeing people treated unfairly.

You wern’t a Jew during WWII.
You weren’t a black during slavory.
*on goes the list*
Now there’s no one left to stand up for you.

Why would I also be studying Hebrew if I was a Muslem?

Look, to prove that you’re not racest, name us three thing that you find admirable about Semetic cultures.

If you don’t think there’s anything good about that culture then just say that you don’t. May be being racest is okay, if there’s nothing good about a praticular culture.(but it will probably be that you’re just ignorant about some of their qualities) When you answer don’t try to be corney and ham it up.

It’s not really their religion that I’m trying to defend. I actually strongly disagree with Islam. I just think they have a right to wear head scarves if they want to and yes I know it’s a public school. If this was a bann on head scarves for non-religous reason such as ceanliness they may be starting to have a point there, however, I think that they would have a hard time proving that. The government is defining religion and this is very dangerous.

donerail: IN paris, it is different, it’s safer…there’s a police presence, lots of people everywhere…ourside in the northern paris suburbs, in the arab suburbs, a nice european french man doesn’t go into those neighborhoods unless driving through there in a FAST car…they will kill you there if you’re not arab or north african..

as long as you’re in paris during daytime hours at the market (you’re spending money there, they wont mind at the market) you’re fine and prices are cheaper there than at the mouffetard market…but at mouffetard you can hear edith piaf songs and watch parisiens dancing in the street to old french songs

and don’t ya just love all the different varieties of olives at the markets? it’s too bad America has gone on to supermarkets/fast food and rejected small, local markets for fresh foods..

Amero-Franc, that is a good View of France and the big head pieces. I just don’t believe France has time to be liberating Moslem women from their ways or their mode of dressing. The "Ile de Paris" does not seem to mean "Island where you can come and make your own clique". It doesn’t seem to mean: Island where you can come and keep your Mulas safe or walk on your hands down Rue des Martyrs. Living in the United States borders requires Jury Duty, encourages Voting, Requires going to Vietnam if you are Drafted, etc. Why not let France be France…..

Regardless of any opinions here…to all, I wish you a Very good and Lucky— St. Patrick’s Day—wearing of the Green, making it, or just
watching out for Leprechauns who will take your green or maybe give you some…. As a past visitor in San Sebastian and Madrid, etc. I truly feel for the genteele people of Spain and those affected in Southwestern
France.

amero-franc: you’re brain is so dense that it makes heavy russian bread seem light as the clouds..

yes, it IS about making schools secular..you said "It’s not about trying to make school secular, because if it was they wouldn’t care about wether the hear scarf was optional or not. This is all about the French trying to liberate the Muslem women." if the schools WERE really secular already, then there would be no need for that law! if the french were trying to liberate muslim women as you say, then the mulsim head scarf would be banned EVERYWHERE in france, and not just in school…but that isn’t the case…as usual you think you know something, when in fact you don’t…maybe that is because you’ve never been to France, so you’ve never experienced their culture?

first you say it’sw all about racism, now you say it’s about liberating muslim women…you remind me of Bush and his Iraq affair, first it’s about WMD (that aren’t found) and now it’s about "liberating" iraq…maybe if you twist things around you can convince YOURSELF that you’re right, but nobody else here believes you…

how do you feel about the catholics being discriminated against? after all, they cannot wear any crucifixes around their necks in school either (and haven’t been legally allowed since 1900)..as a christian, don’t you feel outrage? don’t you feel that they are being discriminated against? where is your ranting and raving about christian discrimination? i don’t see any here at all… your sympathies are only directed at muslims…are you sure you’re not secretely harboring islamic beliefs?

it doesn’t matter if you study hebrew…most palestinians can speak hebrew quite nicely…

you say, "Look, your not going to change them this way. If you don’t like them just deport them." WOW!! what a nazi-like thought! that is what Hitler did to Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, and other so-called "undesirables." you are a sick puppy, you should make an appointment to see donerail, he’s a psychiatrist…you need serious help…

Happy St. Patrick’s Day to all here!! because of the snowstorm here in the NY region, i will be leaving work early, and making green/white angel food cakes in a pretty swirl pattern for the St. Paddy’s Day party at work tomorrow…yes i know it sounds odd, but they will be quite tasty.. and afterwards, having a nice vin chaud aux epices (hot wine with spices) that i prepared and bottled last week
<—green smilie

Long Live FRENCH FOOD

La viellebranche,

After read the other forum I think all of you know what I think about this.

How many lives do you think it would have saved if Hitler would have deported them. He tryed and failed. Yes he was Evil, but if you’re really care about the people you wouldn’t care about the Evil government. You’ld care about the people. You’re a racest along with the anti-semite Chirac. France is a pre-Nazi Germany.

I enjoy watching AmeroFranke bounce you around the ring. You can tell someone’s loosing when they start insulting the intelligence of their opponents.

Hey, just because Hitler does something doesn’t mean it’s Evil. Hitler wore a little mustache; so did Laural and Hardy. You see things too black and white.

swierd: i will tell you the same thing that i told amero-franc, get your butt out of ww2 and into the 21st century, if you’re capable…germany made peace with israel a LONG time ago and is now one of israel’s closest allies, after the united states….there is a big tourist industry between israel and germany, germans visiting israel…or maybe YOU didn’t know that…strange isn’t it..the jews of israel can make peace with germany but YOU cannot..you would condemn the grandchildren for the sins of their ancestors..doesn’t sound that you care about people much..

you condemn an entire country because of what you read in the american media…it’s YOU who is the racist…

i dont need to insult your intellegence…you may or may NOT be intellegent, but you’ve certainly showed your ignorance and you cannot edit that away…

Donerail:

Thanks for your "free" advice…I too work in the medical profession and as we all know, there are good medical professionals and not so good medical professionals and then the just out and out incompetent…I could put you in the last group…IF you are in fact a psychiatrist…which I highly doubt…If you are, your practice must be minisual…since you seem to want to find your "patients" on a website…I think with my having a top secret clearance with the government…someone would have discovered your "assumption"(there you go assuming again…) quite some time ago, if it were true…You are truly a disgrace to your profession…You are very unprofessional…or in comparison to the psychiatrists that I know and work with…I believe you are trying to "put one over one me"…but, if not, I would suspect your practice is very minimal and your patients know just about as much or more than you do…

Sweird,

I appreciate your support of my same beliefs, however, I’ll have to go with LaVieilleBranche on this one, but only partially. I totially agree with you except with comparing them with Nazi Germany. They may very well be; you never can tell what a county can turn into, but I think it’s rather early to say.

Really, I’m not sure that that that what is going to happen. I think probably what is going to happen is that since they just inraged the Muslems, there will be some big terrorist atack like they had in Spain. Then they will chicken out and go back to letting then have the head scarves again. Only this time they made the Muslems mad and they hae a bigger problem than before. Like I said before, They sould just deport them and ggod or bad that’s probably what’s going to happen. I agree with danairozo it’s is the place start your own clique. Do you guys want to fight the battle of tours all over again?

LaVieilleBranche,

You asked before that why I’m not worred about the Crosses and the Crucifixes. Actuially I am but;

For one thing, that’s all you’re talking about; how the Muslems mistreat women. By forcing them to wear a head scarf. You’re not complaining about the Crosses, except that tossing away the crosses is the only way to get rid of the Head-grear.

Secondly, The motavation of this is the Head-gear. No one said any thing about getting rid of the crosses untill there were too many Muslems wearing head-gear. "Oh no, your head gear is making me feel uncomfortable around you." "Hey teacher can we bann all the Religious things. Here I’ll throw off my cross. Now, make her get rid of her head-gear."

Joyeux Jour de Sant Patrick

Lavele Branche,

I never said any thing about Germany, I said Pre-Nazi Germany.

Amero-frank,
That’s what I said PRE-Nazi Germany. I didn’t say Nazi Germany, so that means I agree with you. It could end up being Nazi Germany.

P.S. By the way today I heard that a frenchman tried to kill a man he thought was Ossoma in the South of France. He tryed to run him over and collect his reward. Luckily, the poor guy got away.

ameri-franc, it’s been illegal to wear crucifixes in public school since the early 1900’s in france…i have posted this in the past…did you ever read them? go back and read the previous posts, then go to an online history site and read about the conflicts between the church and the state in the beginning of the 20th century…

it is a known fact certain muslim groups mistreat women, however, the head scarf is a religious symbol. i know muslims here in usa who are very open and free, but they wear that head scarf, it’s a part of their RELIGION. you cannot ban crucifixes and then let muslims wear religious head scarves, that smacks of religious discrimination, or worse, political correctnes…it’s ok for muslims, but those christians have to keep their crosses off for many many years now…a law for one group is a law for ALL groups, this is how the french see it…NO special privledges….this is alwo why their medical/health system is the same for all, whether you’re 20 or 80 years old…one system for all to make it fair..

i see you copied my idea of green smilies…at least you got THAT right

amero-franc:

as for terrorists, france has had them since the 1980’s because of algeria…they bombed the metro and rer trains, and also bombed a few trains in the early 1990’s, algerian terrorists…so the french are prepared…

i would NOT want to be a terrorist in france..i like the french style of snagging terrorists, they inflitrate the groups (very hard to do, btw) get the info they need and snag the would be bombers in the dead of night in their homes without doing major disturbance in the neighborhood to law abiding citizens…2 or 3 days later you read in the newspaper about some secret operation that caught some would be assassin, and he’s in their jail system forever..

sweird: I don’t think holding Hitler up as a role model will grow legs in this Forum. Arguably his worst characteristic was his abuse of power. Politics and Religion are two very powerful institutions and should be kept separate for just that reason. If we don’t, we risk another monumental abuse of power situation. Right now Bush is talking to God to get Him (or Her) on our side. The Arab population in France (and here) is growing and is trying to become more vocal. Unfortunately, they are used to theocracies and dictatorships. I think the French know what they are doing as they want neither one. If the French government is wrong, they will get a new and different leadership – just like we will be doing come November.

LaVieilleBranch: sometimes French terrorists, when they are caught, have a tendency to jump from tall buildings to their death. its amazing how they get those locked windows to open.

ikorrellim: I am still wondering if you think there may be other nations out there with a higher standard of living than our’s? In my previous message to you, I wasn’t assuming anything. I was offering a (free) opinion that you are nuts. Animal Crackers if you like that term better. By the way, isn’t it frightening to see that it took a Hitler analogy by Sweird to get Amero-Franc to agree with LaVieilleBranche on something? Now I have three people competing for a place on my couch: Yourself, Amero-Franc, and Sweird. Amero-Franc and Sweird are crazier than loons. I think the latter two may be treatable. But you ikorrellim, you are truly beyond hope. Donerail

donerail,

Politicially incorect, therefore a lunitic; where did you get your degree Moscow? Stalingrad? Okay time to take us off to the crazy house. Then when were off to the re-education camp to become good citizens of the world. ikorrellim perhaps you’re too much of a capitolist you’ll probably have to stay and get injections for the rest of your life to keep you "normal".

LaVieilleBranche,

Didn’t you mean 1800s when Manger seens were banned outside. Well, since streets are government property and the government should be seclar therefore keep them out. (By the way this is what started the tradition of keeping a crèche seen.

But about the crosses, why did the news(BBC, CNN, Radio Japan, Radio France) say that this was a bann on crosses as well as Head-gear, if the crosses were already banned?

I know that you all have had this before us. They mostly put more restrictions on citizens. I know about your little trip to Algeria, but you could have done alot more. If they would just repeal some of those Nepolionic laws alowing alot of the Muslems free access, some of this might to halted. The U.S. and Western Europe are basicially the same culture. If somehting happens over there, sooner or later it’s going to come over here and Visa-Versa. That’s why this bann on the Head-gear is so imprtant.

Yes actuially, I kind of like the smiles now. I didn’t used to. At first I wanted the thing they called a Devil(Because it doesn’t look very much like on) but that didn’t work. Smiles just give more happiness to more of the disagreeable things of life. Yea, thanks for putting me on to this.

amero-franc: no i meant 1900…but i guess you dont know the difference between 1800 and 1900…the difference is in the numbers..you know, those strange little things (developed by arabs) that help us to keep count…

typical american, the little you know about history is what you read in some american history book, and considering what is left out of american history, and how high schools have removed european history courses as being "politically incorrect" your views aren’t suprising….

isn’t it interesting..crosses banned since 1900, and the catholics haven’t been bombing france for it, jewish symbols also have been banned in the law, the jews aren’t blowing things up in france…muslims move to france and immediately want special privledges, and when they have to follow the law, they get some Chechan terrorist to threaten terrorism if THEY have to follow the same laws as everybody else….

allowing muslims free access?? look in a mirror and see your own country and how it treats muslim citizens…round-ups of muslim men to investigate them, even if he’s just a small grocer supporting his family, he’s interrogated by the FBI, and let’s not forget that little cuban vacation spot reserved exclusively for our muslim brothers, "Hotel Guantanimo."

Now let’s talk about the Patriot Act, signed by your buddy, GW Bush..such a bastion of freedom isn’t it? How about the Homeland Security Act…you see lots of wonderful freedoms in those body of laws? i surely don’t…

European culture IS culture…french culture has been copied world wide, french has been the language of romance, of high style…every european court at one time copied the french style, even the russian czars modeled their palaces on Versailles and learned to speak french…carl faberge, you ever heard of him and the glorious jeweled eggs he made for the russian czars? and italy…the italian rennaissance, Michangelo, Da Vinci…i could go on and on and on….european culture has had 1000 years to develop and grow, the music system we use today is based on french/italian notations over the centuries, even today epitamy of high style is Chanel, Rochas, Lanvin, Dior (french) and Versace, Gucci, Prada (italian)….

did you know that Levis denim is based on a FRENCH cotton fabric that european worker immigrants had? Levi first made his pants in cotton burlap, but they weren’t selling (burlap isn’t comfy on the skin),…then he saw all these european immigrants wearing this cotton fabic from the city of NIMES (de nimes) and he copied the fabric and made his pants out of it…and the rest is history…ironic isn’t it? the great american blue jean is designed using FRENCH COTTON FABRIC from NIMES!! i love it…such irony!

amero-franc: why are you always editing your posts? can’t you write a post correctly the first time?

LaVieilleBranche,

The banning of the outdoor Crèche seen on ones own property is not some type of American propaganda. It is purely a documented historical fact. About Crosses being banned in France since 1900, I find that hard to believe. For one thing the Nazis used to occupy most of France during the latter part of WWII. Even though the Nazis were very "secular" except for their own ideas, I believe that changed your government. Again, why was this also a bann on crosses, if crosses were already banned. Oh I forgot; you think that history is irrelavent.

Also I do not support all of our internal policies on fighting terrorism. From what I hear I think France does a better job at that and have been at it alot longer than we have. I never said that I supported the Patriot Act. Again, you’re assuming things about me that you didn’t ask me about. Anyway, I think that if we’re going to stop terrorism (which will never really be totially stoped) the fighting will not be internal.(allowing them to come to us first) This is why I don’t support the Patriot at or at least the little parts I know of it. On the other hand the Homeland Security Act, although I didn’t really support it, I didn’t really see many harms it does eather. I really don’t think it did much. Some how it centralized information, but I havn’t seen a great benifit or harm. I do think that the President is doing the right thing externally with fighting terrorism abrod, although he could of sold it better. It really wasn’t about finding WMDs and It really isn’t about freeing Iraqis. (which he’s trying to make the world buy now) It’s about fighting terrorism.

It’s a well known fact that Saddam supported terrorism. He was in fact probabily the greatest supporter, finacially as well as substantially. It’s is also a well know fact that he gave vast sums of maney to terrorism organizations world wide. Iraq was also a command post for terrorism organizaions from all over the world. This have really crippeled Al-Quida. In fact the last forgien cantact that the Sept-11 mastermand talk to was an Iraqi.

Anyway my point is you seem to think that I throw away my brain and use Bush’s and you’re most definatly wrong. Again, you seem to know who I am before you ask the question. So far I’m a lude dressing, Muslem lunitic that only speaks English and makes my wife wear a berqa…

Speaking of asking question, you’ve poted 7 posts since I asked you to name 3 good things about semetic cultures. So, I assume you do not see any qualities.

Vive la vraie France! Vive les États Unis!

P.S. As to why I edit; one of the reasons is beacause my computer tends to freeze up, so I want to save what I have written. Then I go back and write the rest.

ameri-franc, i said 1900! WW2 was 1940’s! that is a 40 year difference! do you know how to add numbers correctly??? do you know your historical dates??? obviously not..

crosses have been banned in PUBLIC school (note the keyword being PUBLIC)but to make the point stick that ALL religious symbols are banned, they were included AGAIN in the new law…after all, it would be discriminitary to only say muslim head scarves and not crosses, and not skullcaps…so put it all in (even again) one law for ALL citizens. My cousin is an elementary school teacher in Alsace, and she NEVER wears a cross to school. she isn’t allowed either, teachers are included in the ban, and she doesn’t threaten terrorism or make a fuss about it, and she is VERY catholic. Interesting how it’s just the MUSLIMS making a fuss…you DON"T hear the jews, christians b**ching, just the muslims….

if you don’t like the law, then you send your kid to a private school….as some christians do, as some jews do, and as some muslims do in france. we have separation of church and state in the usa for all PUBLIC fianced buildings, like universities, PUBLIC schools, post offices, city halls, etc….but you might not know this..(not suprising)

i dont see why you care so much about French public schools, you’re american since 1700’s, looking at the few french things you said were terribly inaccurate (where did you learn your french from? a Microsoft "Teach Yourself French in 10 Lessons" file?) and you’ve NEVER been to france ever…so i dont really think you’re qualified to comment on ANYTHING over there.

You remind me of GW Bush, he never went outside the USA until he became president, he never even visited mexico/canada! and then he becomes president and trys to tell the whole world how to live…how uneducated and ignorant is that?? there is MORE to education than being book smart, it is about understand people and understanding other cultures….but you seem to have neither book smarts or people smarts….too bad….

have you been to my online photo album? i was in paris (again) for Christmas 2003, and I posted lots of pretty images of paris decorated at christmas time…i even saw creches in paris, but i didn’t photo them (hard to get near, too many people looking, ya know, crowds)…you should take a look…

A few corrections about Iraq, yes..it WAS about WMD, or maybe you forgot all about Bush’s speeches he gave on TV about the purported WMD? Bush ignored the reports from Hans Blix, ignored entire world opinion and dropped DU bombs on Iraq. This was bush’s plan all along since becoming president, in his inauguration speah he said (and i quote), "…we’re going to go after Weapons of Mass Destruction…" if you don’t beieve me, look it up…it’s right in there..

you say " He (sadaam hussein) was in fact probabily the greatest supporter, finacially as well as substantially." you know who the greatest supporter of terrorism is??? SAUDI ARABIA!! 16 of the 19 WTC bombers were from saudi arabia! not one was from iraq! the saudi gov’t is presently being sued for BILLIONS in US courts in connection with financing bogus charities that send money to Al Quaida, even a few saudi princes of the royal family have been sued in US courts over this! it is known fact that Osama Bin Laden (Osama in future paragraphs) HATED sadaam hussein because sadaam had a (for the most part) mostly secular country…women were judges, doctors, lawyers, etc in iraq…they were educated people…sadaam drank alcohol (he had a HUGE wine cellar full of french wine, lucky him), he had a wife and MISTRESSES on the side, etc… all these things Osama hates and is against….if you REALLY think Sadaam was Osama’s financial backer, then you’re more ignorant than i thought!

you said, "Iraq was also a command post for terrorism organizaions from all over the world." HAHAHAHHAAH!!!!!! try syria, saudi arabia, afghanistan, pakistan…or have you forgotten 9-11?? Osama wasn’t holed up in iraq, he was holed up in AFGHANISTAN, a guest of the taliban, the world’s worst opressors of women (in my opinion, that is).

you said, "..This have really crippeled Al-Quida.." ahahahaha!!!! you think so? you REALLY think so?? Iraq is NOT the command center for Al Quaida, the entire world is! those guys operate from every country in the world, they are spread out everywhere! Have you heard about the Madrid train station bombings in which 10 (ten) trains were blown up and at least 200 people killed and at least 1200 people wounded?? that was Al Quaida…guess that group is really "crippled," huh…do you even KNOW where madrid is? one guess….and NO it is NOT a neighborhood in downtown Manhattan…

" So far I’m a lude dressing, Muslem lunitic that only speaks English and makes my wife wear a berqa.." <—thank you for FINALLY admitting what you are, and what everybody suspected all along….

if you want i can contact donerail for you, so you can discuss with him in his office your delusions of superiority and supposed grandeur…

btw, if your PC freezes up, why dont you try re-installing the OS? that might fix it, your OS is probably corrupted…

LaVieilleBranche,

You seem to be of the logic that if A is true then B is false. "Since Saudi Arabia supports terrorism, then Iraq doesn’t" More than one country can have than title (supporter of Terrorism).

I know that Saddam tryed to have somewhat of a secular state. Although he did have mass murders Jews, just for simply being Jews. He was more of a Hitler or a Stalin than an Ossama. He actuially sent his Secrete Police to East Germany to be traned in Soviate tactics untill he could get enough instructors to teacher it themselves. He did however have all sorts of connections to terrorism. He even would openly pay families to give thier children up to be suiside bombers. Of course he probably couldn’t very easily transact the money with any family in the U.S., but that at least shows his outward intentions.

Did you not hear Ossamas last taped speech before we went to bomb Iraq? He said even though he didn’t like the government on Saddams Iraq that we should join forces to help him. Those seem like very sembolic ties to me. If you think that Saddam is such a nice guy perhaps you better check out this web-sight;

http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html

He terrorized his own cival polulation. Of course that wasn’t the reason we went to war. He had connections all over the world. Also, right before the invation we captured some illegal missiles that were being transported from North Korea to Iraq. I’m only telling you this to show you his international allince not because of his WMD which I don’t care if he had them or not. He did have them and he used them on our ally Israel. That’s enough to take action. If it wasn’t for the IMF air force they would still have theat Nuclear reacter that France gave them.

About taking trips over seas, how do you know I haven’t. I am actuially going to take a trip ether to Irsael or France this summer.

amero-franc:
i NEVER said sadaam was a nice guy…he was a dictator, plain and simple. dictators have absolute power, that is why they are called dictators. however, you blame Iraq for Al Quaida, for 9-11 and for all the other problems of the world…

let’s talk about iran-iraq war…USA gave iran weapons to fight iraq, USA gave sadaam hussein chemical weapons, etc. to fight the iranians. USA played both sides of the coin in this situation. USA trained Osama and his people to fight the russians in afghanistan, remember? then he turned all that training against the USA and built training camps in afghanistan. Now it is starting to come out that Donald Rumsfeld had ties to Sadaam and dealt with him in iran-iraq war. I hope they try Sadaam in INTERNATIONAL court, and NOT usa court. I hope everything really comes out, and you will see that it is the policies of the USA that caused mayhem in the Middle East.

If somebody invaded the usa, expelled me from my home, stole my lands and put their own citizens on it, all the while getting a superpower to go along with them, you bet my ass i’d do ANYTHING to fight back….

USA should of gotten out of the Israel-Palestinian conflict a LONG time ago…If Israel would obey the UN resolution that says israel should return all the land taken during the 6 day war, then there wouldn’t be the mess that there is today in the Middle East. hmmmmmm Iraq ignores the UN resolution, we bomb them. Iran doesn’t want nucleur inspectors, we threaten them. Israel ignores the UN resolution, and we protect them…i see a double standard here, me thinks i smell the stink of hypocracy…

by the way…isn’t this a FRENCH forum? (just a reminder here to stay on topic)

amero-franc:

you have a wonderful time in Israel! be sure to show your AMERICAN passport to all those nice palestinians living in ghettos in the gaza strip and west bank…i’m sure they will have quite a lot to tell you, if you survive the trip

I don’t know about the palestinians living in the Gaza strip, but I know someone who was walking through the palestinian side (or the bomb proof side) of Jerusalum when some guy asked her where she was from. When he heard she was from America he though she was some type of queen he brought her into his house to meet his family and his daughter kept on trying to give her her only other dress she owned as a gift. She refused of course. No not everyone hates Americans. Usuially they will talk about hating americans, but then they will say, "Oh but you’re different."

amer-franc: that’s a lovely story, about Jerusalem..

why don’t you go to Gaza and the West back and tell them your opinions, the same ones as you feel so free to share in a FRENCH forum (keyword FRENCH) and see what happens to you

LaVieilleBranche,

Which opinions re you refering to? About France and the head scarf?

Depending on the topic your "pun" could be interpreted different ways. That is unless you just ment it as nothing but an insult.

amer-franc:

EXACTLY

Oh, about the Head-gear,

You are being too generalizing. They would probably agree with me some for the same reasons and many others would agree on totially different reasons such as making France an Islamic state. But you do realize that thier opinion would be altered by their personal status. There then would probably be a select few that would agree with you. That is if your just talking about those who refere to the name palestinians.

Amero-Franc/LaVieilleBranche: You keep wobbling so much that I can’t figure out what it is that you are trying to say. Meanwhile, LaVieilleBranche is whacking you silly. I commend you for studying history. But Amero-Franc, if I had my choice between going to France or Israel, I would choose France. Only because of its history, people, and culture. The Israeli people are very important to us in the USA. They are a bastion of democracy in a very hostile area. But the area will have to quiet down before I will ever think of visiting. My couch is very crowded with you, sweird, and ikorrellim all squeezed together. Donerail

this is a FRENCH politics forum….would be nice if "some people" could stay on topic…however, if they feel the need to vent, i will reply..

now could y’all stay reasonably on topic? 🙂

I have to laugh at you people in Europe. You Europeans are your worst enemies. Without American help you would have killed each other by now. The European Union is exactly what Europe doesn’t need. Here is how the "Great EU" will work. Everything will go fine until some European nation does something France or Germany doesn’t like then there will be the typical behind the scenes plotting to "get" the offending nation. War will eventually result. Also France wants a European army. What a laugh. Again that is exactly what Europe needs, something France can manipulate for their self interest. You watch, it is going to be a France vs. Germany war again because of the French ego problem. Keep it up.———Oh! Don’t come running to the U.S. to bail you out,AGAIN.

frankessary: tell us more about the NRA and your religious right buddies. or is it the klan that turns you on? france and germany have worked their way through the past, why can’t you? they are probably our best allies and we can’t seem to accept that. the french and the germans helped make this country great. i applaud you for participating in this very enlightening forum, even though you seem to be fairly ignorant and a bigot to boot. welcome. Donerail

Donerail: that was quite a two pages watching LaVielleBranche and Amero-Franc "vent". They remind me of that wild Married couple on TV (James Carvelle and Mary Magdalene). LOL…I did read the part about staying out of Gaza especially wearing a Dallas Cowboys shirt on….good advice…

Frankessary:

I think you have hit on something. I have been reading extensively about the EU and following their "progress"…it is amusing…Of course France and Germany want to "rule" the "EU"…and of course France is looking for another "glorious" Waterloo…Germany has had a significant rise in anti-semitism in the last two years…France has an Arab population that is exploding…I understand both are concerned about all of the Mosque’s being built or planned for their countries…It will take a lot more than the countries of Europe joining the EU to solve their internal problems…France and Germany want to become a superpower by forming the EU and of course they want to be the "lead dogs"…I heard an interesting thing on the news this week…on BBC…it was stated that Chirac nixed the war in Iraq, not so much because he was against it, but because he is trying to "get" Tony Blair…I understand there has been a very long standing rivalry or down right "hatred" of the French by the Brits dating back many many centuries…I can almost guarantee that Britain is not going to let Germany nor France and especially France be the lead dog with the EU…anyway, it makes for interesting reading and very entertaining…You are right…the Europeans have many issues to settle among themselves before they can even begin to try and become united…

Donerail: I see you are using your "degree" again…You told Frankessary that he was ignorant after insulting him…There you go again, anyone that does not agree with your views, you immediately "try" to insult and label them as ignorant or uneducated…P.S. How’s Mission Hill? Going your way?

Quote from above: and of course France is looking for another "glorious" Waterloo

I sincerely doubt that. Napoleon was defeated at Waterloo. Not exactly glorious.

BTW, all you who think the EU is doomed to failure . . . Have you noticed that the eastern European countries who are joining the EU (not yet in it) have started to have better economies already? Of course for the humble US tourist (there must be one someplace), that means prices are going up in the "cheap" countries.

It is entirely possible that a united Europe could become much stronger than the United States. They already have a larger military force, but it’s not united. The euro is stronger than the dollar right now. The strongest economies in Europe are not France and Germany, they are Norway and Sweden. There will always be people who try to gain power, but it is not necessarily the ones who make the most noise in the press who gain the power.

ikorrellim: It’s good to see you back. How was it at the sanatorium? Yes, I confess I did call frankessary ignorant. And I did call him a bigot. (You must read his rantings on other threads to get a better appreciation.) A statement of fact should be no vice in this Forum, should it? frankessary has as much trouble as you do in backing up convictions or answering questions. It is interesting to see how both of you are fearful of the success of the EU. Many people over here just laughed at them and said it couldn’t be done. Well, they have done it. And it seems to be working. So while we are here pounding our wealth down an Iraqi rathole, and at the same time trying to limit the rights and freedoms of our citizens, the Europeans are diligently improving their standard of living and competitiveness. If you invested in the Euro a year ago you would be 40% better off today. Maybe you, frankessary, and sweird should band together and form the Coalition of the Intolerant. Or the Coalition of the Ignorant. It appears your ignorance certainly rivals frankessary and sweird. With your military prowess, you could be the lead pony. SalB beat me to it in enlightening you about Waterloo. We learned up here in the North about Wellington’s victory over Napoleon somewhere around the ninth grade. And ikorrellim, I have no idea what your "Mission Hill" comment was supposed to mean or illicit. I would ask you for enlightenment but I realize you are incapable of such feats. You could try to enlighten yourself, however, and read more about the European nations that have a standard of living better than ours. Donerail

donerail,

I want to ask you WHAT IN MARS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!?

SO he thinks that France and Germany are trying to control the EU. Somehow that makes him a member of the Klan. Could you please show me the connection.

The only thing I can say is that "I know alot of Dentists that have bad teeth."

I think that those fears may be well founded. As I’ve said before Germany still uses the slogan "Germany Over All" (Deutschland Uber Alles), much like the way the US uses "Life, liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness (Ownership of Private Property -1st Continintal Congress)" or the way France uses <<Liberté Egalité Fraternité>> (I’m not saying there is anything wrong with France’s) or the way the US uses "In God we Trust." It is put so dearly into the hearts of Germans and I don’t understand why you object to, at least, the posability.

About the NRA, Europe doesn’t have total objection to the US’s 2nd amendment. Like I’ve said before, in Switzerland every household is required to own a fully-automatic-wepon. Could you please also explain why you think he has a connection to the NRA and if he does, why that is relavent to this conversation? If you can’t answer without a bunch a steriotypes you’re just raving (and I do mean that as a verb as well as an ajective).

You seem to say things out into the air and I don’t have the slightest idea what you are talking about. Perhaps your wisdom is so far beyond all of us, so we never could understand eachother.

LaVieilleBranche,

You still havn’t named three things you like about semetic cultures.

danairozo,

I agree with you. I really don’t understand why People from LA, New York Etc. need SUVs.

SUVs are for people who live in more rustic invierment, not in the bussy city. It might help the traffic a little bit if people in the more urban invierment would choose smaller, lower-to-the-ground, cars.

However, I think that taking the SUV’s away from the Family in Kentucky, Iowa, Etc. would be unfair. IN fact I think regulating and taking your choice of car where ever you live is unfair to a minimal extreem.

Amero-Franc: In order to get a better perspective on my comments to frankessary, you have to go to other threads to get flavor of this individual. You might also try to figure our how to use the "spell check" feature on your computer. It would hel a lot. Donerail

Amero-Franc: (I see where I could have used the "spell check" feature myself, in my last post. Oh well…) I meant to advise that you have more to worry about in the likes of Ashcroft, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush, Rice et al than you ever will from the leadership of Germany and France.

Somehow that makes him a member of the Klan. Could you please show me the connection?

Since this was from, as you say, "another thread", Quote his own words were he said he was a Klansman. Otherwise you’re eather know him personially or you’re just making steriotypes without backing it up with anything.

Amero-Franc: Scroll back up. I didn’t say frankessary was a member of the klan – but I bet he gets turned on by the klan. Save us the time and read his posts on other threads. I see you finally made some sense in not seeing the need for SUVs. Keep up the good work. Donerail

Split the difference and answer the question!

hello all!

been a little sick all week and wasn’t in the mood to type replies..

good news! i got tickets for paris at easter at a reasonable price
one week in beautiful paris, GOOD FOOD, GOOD WINE, GOOD COFFEE!!! (REAL good coffee!) mmmmm un petit cafe dans un petit cafe

donerail: i see you’re taking up where i left off and slapping Amero-Franc upside the head…hoping you’re slapping him on the other side of the head, not the side i used.. I see you’re also kicking freakessary, ooops!! i meant frankessary where it counts, too (should of used spellcheck )

yes, with all the countries poised to enter the EU in the future, the EU will be a formidable economy that will eclipse ours here in the USA. The dollar is terrible compared to the euro and it’s not going to rise anytime soon. If it does, then American goods would be more expensive overseas, and if we cannot sell our products overseas, then our economy will go down further than it already has. So don’t expect any high dollars for a long time.

LaVieilleBranche: I am glad to hear that you are feeling better. It looks like we will be in LaFrance around the same time enjoying that great french food, wine, and ambience. Can we leave ikorrellim, frankessary, swerid, and Amero-Franc unsupervised for that long? Donerail

Amero-Franc: If you have a question to ask of me, kindly take the time to compose an interrogatory sentence. If it can be understood and is reasonably relevant, I will try to answer it. Donerail

donerail,

I asked you to quote where frankessary said that he was a klansman.

Then you said you didn’t really say that (but only said that he liked them.)

Then I said, "slit the difference." (meaning give me that quote then.)

Why is this so hard for you to understand. I think you understand; you’re just trying to avoid the question.

LaVieilleBranche,

You still havn’t named three things you like about semetic cultures.

Amero-Franc: I asked you to compose a question. What you posted was a rambling diatribe of sorts. Do you have a question for me? Now try real hard. Donerail

I was saying, then send me the quote of him saying that he only likes the Klan. (by the way you astuially said that it turns him on, which is alot more than just liking)

Otherwise you were just name calling.

Amero-Franc: When it pertains to frankessary, just about anything negative that you want to attribute to me is probably correct. In just a few threads, the man has displayed an amazing quotient of ingnorance and intolerance. Can you even imagine in this day and age, someone attributing the incidence of unwed mothers to higher education? His bigotry with regard to non-white workers who are trying to earn a living in this country is an outrage. Now tell me, what is it about his view of Europeans, or European politics, or anything else for that matter, that you would like to defend? Donerail

nobody ever seems to stay on topic! too bad we can’t roll all these forums into one big one…because they’re all starting to sound exactly the same, no matter which thread you go to…

LaVieilleBranche: Ok, back to French politics. Ever notice how the French gendarmes have made issuing a traffic ticket into an art form? Are they trained in that regard or does it come natural. I saw a young woman getting a ticket near the Quai d’Montibello and I wish I had it on film. It was a sight to behold. Donerail

donerail: i never saw a policier give a ticket…strange, in all my trips i never saw it…what was it like?

LaVieilleBranche: The traffic ticket event was in Paris. There were 3 police on foot. They managed to get the lady to park at the curb in the exact fashion that they wanted. Plenty of backing up and forth but after a while the lady was suitably parked for the delivery of her ticket. One police officer had a clipboard with plenty of things on it and he instituted a long interview of sorts. Another just kept walking around the vehicle. He must have completed at least a dozen or two dozen laps. The third seemed to be a supervisor who kept watch the whole time. They were resplindant in their blue uniforms and white gloves. We watched the process for about 15 minutes and it looked like it might continue for most of the morning. I was going to take a picture of the evernt but then thought better of it. Later that trip we actually encountered what we would refer to as a "speed trap." One officer with a clipboard, one with binoculars, one with a radar gun on a tripod – all in "formation." And also there were 3 mounted motorcycle officers on BMW motorcyles ready to go. It was a hoot. Fortunately I had been warned by about 50 motorists coming in the opposite direction by their flashing headlight signals. Only in France could traffic enforcement be raised to an artform. Donerail

donerail: that sounds hilarious! you should of taken a photo of that!

LaVieilleBranche: It was entertaining. Well, I am off to La France. Thanks to you and SalB for the tips. You both are great. Continue to help Amero-Franc with his schooling. Donerail

donerail have a great time in france! i’ll be there on april 12 will walk by the restaurants i recommended to see if by chance you’re there

enjoy!

Hello again LaVieilleBranche,

Could you please tell us three things you like about semetic cultures or would you like to just aviod the question again?

Amero-Franc:

Your semetic cultures question is inappropriate and therefore I choose not to answer it. It is on the same level as asking me who I will vote for in the November elections. I won’t answer that question, either.

Everybody have a very nice Easter. I’m getting ready to go to France and don’t know if I’ll have time to stop in here before I leave.

Hello again LaVieilleBranche,

Could you please tell us three things you like about semetic cultures or would you like to just aviod the question again?

P.S. So what? I’ve answered all of your pointless alagations. Such as dressing modestly in the house of God. Am I a Muslem? Do I only speak english? Do I click the Edit button because I’m trying to hide something? The only difference is that I’m asking it in the form of a question instead of just saying you do all those thing, so then I need to refute them. (Well, It may be I really don’t need to, but then that would mean that I really don’t respect what you have to say.)

So…?

Amero-Franc:

1) I have already addressed that semetic cultures question. If you don’t like the answer, that is your problem, not mine.

2) It is NOT my posts that ALWAYS say "message edited by…" Look at YOUR own posts first. EVERY one of YOUR POSTS says, "message edited by Amero-Franc." When I edit something, it is usually because I saw a spelling error that i wish to correct. A SPELLING error… what is YOUR excuse to edit EVERY ONE OF YOURS? Certainly it’s NOT spelling, your use of the English language is terible and your spelling is WORSE!

pardon me while i laugh the hypocracy of it all!

Connecting the Dots:

While watching CSPAN, I heard some very interesting information. The Food for Oil Program was corrupt with payoffs and kickbacks in the millions, more like billions of dollars…Saddam was kicking back to…you guessed it France…It is interesting to note that the investigation mentioned this fact on one day…and the NEXT day, Chirac declares that he is willing to send troops to Iraq if he gets an equal voice…

In all fairness to France, Russia was also implicated…They have not mentioned Germany yet…but I am sure they had their little sticky hands in the honey jar too…

Thought I’d pass this on as a very interesting development…

ikorrellim: Your command of the obvious is stunning. Now, is the corruption in the Food for Oil Program the reason we invaded Iraq? I thought it it was the WMDs. I just got back from France and saw some interesting articles (International Herald) about some of our troops starting to wonder what we are doing over there. What a quagmire. Chirac has made some changes to his cabinet which are supposed to be a tad more friendly to the US. Maybe the French will help us out of the quagmire. Donerail

Donerail:

You did not connect the dots…It was "discussed" that it is felt that the reason France was so against the invasion of Iraq is because they did not want this corruption (on their part) unveiled…Then, of course, as soon as it is out in the open…the very next day, it is announced on TV that Chirac will send troops to Iraq if he has an equal say…

I see that your vacation did absolutely nothing for your hostile tone…perhaps this is your personality…I would venture to guess that being a "psychiatrist" and having to listen to everyone’s problems each and every day has made you somewhat jaded…Poor Donerail…perhaps it is time to retire and move to France permanently…

ikorellim: You are pathetic beyond description. Or you are just the boorish loser that you portray. A thin skinned loser at that. La France was just magnificent. How is your wonderful war going? Donerail

Donerail:

Well as I told your friend LV-B, the only thing that I can do for you is to pray for you…and I will…You and she both seem so full of your self-importance and you both have a need to strike out at other people to try and belittle them to make yourselves feel better…That is sad…but, everyone has to be somewhere…and as I said in another posts, Whatever blows both of your skirts up…

donerail, Welcome back. How was your trip? I trust you will share details with us?

BTW, are you are aware that there is an oil pipeline problem in the Middle East and we need to get it through so the US oil interests can continue to pollute the world? The war was an economic necessity for the oil interests in the US, read . . . the present administration. Yes, France and Russia had their fingers in the nastiness pie, but so do we. It is hard to find true humanitarians . . . in any age.

Have you read "Guns, Germs and Steel?" It is sort of an economic/biologic history of the world. I don’t agree with all of it, but it is very interesting.

At any rate, good to have you back.

SalB: Thank you for those kind words. I am slowing being re-acclimatized to the good old USA. France is so wonderful. It should be required training for a high school or college diploma. We had probably 3 dozen different kinds of cheese in addition to some fabulous red and white wines. Vezelay was captivating – especially those doors. The abbaye at Timie in Le Tortenoz was very moving. The Abbaye at Fontenay was the same. The alpine villages were spectacular. We put 2100 km on the rental car. The hospitality of innkeepers, shopkeepers, and restaurants were beyond description. Strolling Paris was lovely as always. We have never seen Paris so crowded – couldn’t get into Easter Eve services. Can’t wait until next year. Donerail

ikorellim: If you really are praying for me, when should I be feeling a more mellow attitude toward you? I don’t feel it kicking in yet. Meanwhile, how is your war in Iraq going? Donerail

Donerail:

Your digs are lessening, so I am thinking that the prayers are kicking in…Your hostility level is very extreme…perhaps you should seek one of your "psychiatrist" friends for some counseling for yourself…

As far as how the war is going, do what I do, listen to CNN, FoxNews, CSPAN and other channels, read the Washington Post, The New York Times, the LA Times, local papers every day and every now and then to see what others in the country think…pick up on internet the Dallas paper or perhaps a paper in Mass…which I have done recently…then you will be well informed and you can have informed discussions with others…

By the way, what have you done for your favorite son? Did you go to his fundraiser of a few nights ago? It was held in Boston…Did you join his johnkerry.com.. Did you contribute to his campaign, did you volunteer…I didn’t think so…you are all talk and no action…it is obvious from your posts…

I know why you have such a distainful personality and attitude and so do you…you just don’t want to admit it…

ikorellim: Please tell me more about myself. I find it very therapeudic. Your are such a pleasant person. I still can’t feel your prayers kicking in, however. Do you supposed God isn’t listening to you? I do wonder why you don’t know how your war in Iraq is going. I thought of an idea overnight. Why don’t you re-enlist and go over to Iraq. Those crazed Iragis would take one look at you and your personality and would surrender immediately. By the way, President-elect Kerry is doing just fine. He has, as you may know, French ancestry and he speaks French quite well. Donerail

having a wonderful time in france, food and people are wonderful…plenty of americans visiting france right now…boycott is dying out! I have not seen ANY anti-americanism at all…french people are nice, polite and very hospitable.

ikorrelim: you bad mouthing me while i’m gone in france? when i get back home i will answer you, you intolerant, pretentious, bigoted excuse for a human being. It’s people like you that give americans visiting abroad a bad name, you bigot!

(sorry for typos, not used to a french keyboard)

I thought we were going to make this a kinder gentler forum?

. . . sigh . . .

SalB: It is kindler and gentler. Ikorellim has been praying for LaVieilleBranche and me. Can’t you see the results? Donerail

"when i get back home i will answer you, you intolerant, pretentious, bigoted excuse for a human being."

Kick the habbit!

Donerail, no, I can’t see the results. People who pray take it very seriously and it’s not something you should joke about. It seems a very personal issue to me.

If you aren’t kinder and gentler, perhaps it is because God has more important things on His mind than improving your behaviour. Why don’t you allow God a break, and make yourself kinder and gentler? He would have more time to take care of the mess in the Middle East . . . and you would be responsible. Now, that’s something to be proud of, rather than baiting a couple people who really can’t fight back.

It is okay to disagree. It is okay to state why you disagree. It is not okay to call people names. Remember "Everything I Need to Know, I Learned in Kindergarten?" It was a good book . . . or as I used to tell my students, "Any idiot can start a fight. It takes courage to stop a fight."

Do I sound like your mother again?

SalB: Thanks. You are sounding like my mother. And the nuns that I was exposed to for so many years. I am afraid that I just have a hard time with bigots like ikorellim. I am referring to ikorellim, frankessary, and sweird specifically. I can easily accept constructive criticism like yours. I like to debate politics and contemporary issues. When it comes to racism or religous bigotry my tolerance level is quite low. I just wish everyone in the world would keep their religion to themselves. I didn’t bring up the subject of religion. I am reacting to others that brought it up. If I were a religious person, the last thing that I would do is bring it up as a matter of debate on an internet chat forum. I think the French have the right approach. Religion is part of their history and culture – but is is a private matter. Can you understand that it may be a tad demeaning to say that you are praying for someone’s improvement? Donerail

I am not nor never have been a nun!! ) I am and have been a mother. I relate to your feelings about religion. I prefer to keep mine to myself, but many people are not like that. Over the years I have had many students (and their parents) say they were praying for me and I learned to simply say thank you and leave it alone. You won’t change them; they won’t change you so why get in a fight.

Somewhat like beauty, bigotry is in the eyes of the beholder. If, in fact, someone is a bigot, they are that way because of some life experience. Telling them they are wrong will not change their mind. Telling them they are an idiot will confirm to them that they are right which is the last thing you want to do. Being kind,debating intelligently and keeping communication open may (or may not) eventually change their mind.

It’s odd but many of us get on travel forums and in discussions with friends and tell them that when they go to France they need to be very polite. "If you are polite to the French, they will be polite to you." I’ve seen it many times. It’s said often because it’s true. Does it not seem reasonable to maintain the same attitude on the forums? The only way to make people stop calling you names is for you to stop calling them names. It’s okay to debate issues and that is what the forum is about. But to get into name calling and accusations only serves to alienate people and entertain the occasional teenager who reads the forums to discover adults can act childish too.

I think what I’m taking too long to say is, being polite should apply to more than visiting France. It should also apply to French forums. I stand by my, "Any idiot can start a fight; it takes courage to stop one." Just don’t take the bait. Be the bigger person.

Fondly, MOM

SalB: Thanks, Mom. Now help me out here. After reading what frankessary, sweird, and ikorellim posts on this site, how can one possibly look the other way or just somehow try to be polite? I realize that this is just the internet and everything in it could be a crock – but I think re-peat posters know what they are doing. Meanwhile the bills are starting to trickle in from the trip to LaFrance. Looks like the average exchange rate on credit purchases is 1.22 USD to the EURO. Donerail

I’ve been watching the exchange rate too. It has been going in the right direction, albeit slowly. A couple months ago it was $1.28 to the euro. Yesterday on my currency check it was $1.19 to the euro. That’s good. We’re going to London next month and London is too expensive anyway. Hopefully we’ll have Rome paid for before the London bills arrive!

Honestly, donerail, I don’t know why you get embroiled in all this nonsense. You aren’t going to change anyone. The praying for you thing can be upsetting, but you keep bringing it back up. It’s kind of like beating a dead horse . . . won’t do any good. Also, I suspect your sarcasm is totally lost on its intended audience.

The bottom line is that if you know better, you should set a good example, not jump into the fray with abandon. Somebody has to set a higher tone and if not you, then who? We could use a little Victorian ambiance in the forum. If we all descend to the lowest common denominator, we’re lost. We’ll all be running around with tattoos, sleeveless tee shirts in souped up Harley’s needing a bath and a haircut. (I’m sure I’ve stepped on a few toes here. Sorry, but that’s not my idea of civilized society.)

Also, there are kids here and they need an example of how an educated adult is supposed to act. You will be an example whether you want to or not. The question you have to decide is what kind of example you want to be.

Fondly, MOM

SalB, I mean MOM. I remember the nuns telling me that I was not totally useless. I could be used as the bad example. Now you are telling me that I can be a role model. Donerail

Ah . . . If the shoe fits, wear it. I didn’t tell you that you could be a role model. I told you that you are a role model. The kind you are is your choice.

Life is about choices. If we can make the world a better place, it seems to me that we should. Why would anyone choose the opposite?

Fondly, MOM (or Pollyanna)

Donerail:

Looks like my prays have been answered…SalB seems to be able to communicate to you what quite a few others on this forum have been trying to commicate…Kudo’s to SalB…

Aunt B, I mean MOM, I mean SalB: I thought I was making the world a better place. I seem to have people praying. Donerail

Probably a good thing too!

You are the one who says he dislikes discussing prayer and you are the one who constantly brings up the topic in each post. It looks like you really do want to discuss it . . . at least you sure won’t let it drop.

Baiting people does not seem to me to make the world a better place, but we all know that I’m very old fashioned.

At any rate, I am ready to leave the subject and move on to a more travel oriented topic. The rest of you can duke it out. Good Luck.

Hello all,

I’m back from France since last Sunday.

I agree with SalB. She makes a lot of sense.

Swierd, amero-franc, and ikkorelim (ikky) are too negative and intolerant. They beat the drum of extreme nationalism and patriotism (as Hitler did). The only people they will "respect" are countries or cultures that toady up to the USA for money or other reasons.

Ikky needs to pray for herself. Pray for love and respect of ALL cultures, not just ones that suck up to the USA for personal gain.

I live 30 minutes from the World Trade Center site. All of us here have had to endure closed highways and bridges/tunnels, extreme security at airports here (that doesn’t exist nearly as strong in the south), instant checks of our cars by the state police on the highways, US army patrolling the shopping malls, etc. The list goes on and on. Despite all of this, the people of NJ and NYC don’t slander the French and we don’t slander immigrants.

Ikky, swierd and amero-franc could learn from us in this region of the USA.

Well, I’m off to a more positive forum here about France. There’s nothing like sharing wonderful memories of a great culture with like minded individuals.

I’ll leave the negative people to their own devices

LaVieilleBranche: Very well stated. Welcome home. Donerail

hi guys

hi i am a college student and i was doing a research paper about the french culture and to find anything in peculiar about my findings for my french class. i have to say, donerail, lavielleblache, amer-fran and so on… u you gus really entertained me. now i have more to talk about. i didn’t know that the heat wave killed thousands of people. i remembered a heat wave but i didn’t know the numbers were that high. i didn’t know about the french views on religious belief. i didn’t. but some of those forum was well….CRAZY and out of line..espcially the one with donerail and ikerlin (sorry if i spelled it wrong)arguing. One thing for sure, if i were to film the two of you fight like this… kids would definitely watch tv. as for me… i’m in into traveling and i would love to see other ideas and not neglect where i came from, rather try to implement others into my own if its good. you know what i find most interesting is that most of us are American…. that’s deep. it’s making me think twice about my own country now. fromt the suv’s to the iraqi war, i find it all interesting. maybe i should go to france and see how beautiful it’s. i didn’t know that the temp was in the mid 70’s during the summer. i should definitely go. i was thinking about Canada as my escape from the heat… we’ll see. anyway interesting forum. i’ll see you all some other time perhaps.

ps: sorry for my writings.

Eyedealm: Nice post. It is good to see that the Forums are thought provoking. Especially for a college student. When I was in college, I think I suffered from putting cultural things in a perspective that only covered the twenty or so years of my lifetime up to that point. That’s if I even gave it that much thought to begin with. When it came to France, I could only think in the context of WWII and deGaulle. Maybe a little of WWI. And the Renault "compact" that could not compete. And how they got slapped in Vietnam. I missed the boat entirely. I wish I had taken some French history courses. You are learning at a nice young age tons of stuff that I was ignorant of. The French culture is so great because they have done and experienced it all. The viciousness of bloody wars to the age of enlightenment. From antiquity to kings. From religion to science. From imperialism to closed door politics. Culinary innovation and the creation of wines. And one of the most melodious of languages. The French have "been there – done that." I hope these Forums are not giving you the impression that any of us want to disrespect the USA. Nothing could be further from the truth. We want a better USA and what better way than to learn and utilize the best from folks who have "been there – done that?" Good luck with your studies. By the way, I don’t like the heat either. Keep posting. Donerail

Heat . . . It’s May 3 and the temp is 103. AAAAAAAAAAAGH.

The heat wave in Europe was all over tv last summer. There were several problems involved. The first and largest problem was the fact that it simply doesn’t get that hot in northern Europe in the summer . . . certainly not for such an extended length of time.

Electricity is much more expensive there. That’s why the lights are on timers in hallways. You don’t have to remember to turn them off. They turn off (often when you’re halfway up the stairs, but they turn off). Obviously, they are not going to install air conditioning for a few warm days when it costs a fortune to run. This was more than a few days though!

Many buildings are historic and you can’t alter the facade so there is no way to install air conditioning.

Another biggy was that so many people were away on vacation and out of touch, as we all try to be on vacation, and there were older people at home who simply couldn’t handle the excessive heat. I think France was hit the hardest, but all of Europe had literally thousands of deaths. It was a great tragedy.

I’m relating to heat today because it’s so hot here. It’s supposed to be Spring . . . even in southern California.

donerail and SalB: nice to see the forums aren’t COMPLETELY dead yet!

yes, that heat wave last year was something terrible. I was in France for 6 weeks, I got to experience ALL of the heat. The streets were empty during the day. NOBODY came out of their office, home, etc unless they absolutely had to, it was THAT bad. It was a hot air mass from the Sahasra desert just sitting on top of Northern Europe and baking everything in its path. Even the Jura mountains had 90 degree temperatures during the day which was terrible for the people there.

Let’s just hope they don’t have another heat wave like that for a LONG LONG time.

SalB: did you watch the tv movie 10.5? it showed california in terrible earthquakes falling into the ocean…sorry, I just had to mention that..was a good movie, too

LaVieilleBranche: Do you have a wine cooler? I am worried about the reds that I brought home from LaFrance. I am thinking of buying one. They seem to cost about $2k. Any insight to this? By the way, I think ikorellim may have gone to Iraq to take care of the prisoners. Donerail

donerail: i’ve seen ads for those portable wine coolers…they are very very expensive!

I have a wine cellar in the house. My father had partitoned off the big cellar with a door, thus creating a small room underground. That is where we store all the wines at a constant cool temperature.

Is it possible for yo to do a little work on your cellar (if you have one) to create a wine area? our cellar is heated, but when you partition it off, make sure that the heating ducts aren’t in that area. I’t cool in summer and cooler in winter. The closed door effectively keeps any heat out. Plus, it’s underground anyways so it’s naturally cooler. It might be worth it in the long run to do this, would surely increas the value of your home and give you a nice size area to store all those French wines

or…you could always give your red wines to me…

Donerail, If you’re giving away wines, how does one apply?

SalB: That was a false rumor started by LaVieilleBranche. But I do need to preserve my growing collection. Donerail

I knew you were both joking but wanted to join the fun. Have you checked wine coolers online? You might check vendors in Napa or Sonoma for used ones. Do you have a basement? That would be as good as anything. A little dust on the bottles adds to the ambiance!

HI!

nice to see the forums aren’t dead yet Since amero-franc and ikorrelim have bit the dust, it seems to be nicer here now

(am in a good mood from drinking this kir here)

donerail, have you tried ebay? i know that might sound really stupid, but who knows? you might be able to get a nice wine cooler on ebay much cheaper..

although I still think sectioning off your cellar and turning it into a wine cellar is the best thing…nothing like dust, spiders and a little mold on the wine bottles to add that authentic French flair

donerail: my boyfriend is now in the USA permanently! no more airplanes every 6 weeks for him, or me when I have my vacation time! Life is good

LaVielleBranche: I just thought of a great idea. Why don’t you and your boyfriend come out here and build a wine cellare in my basement? I would even help, although I have trouble driving a nail with a hammer. I have looked at eBay, and like most everything, there are too many choices. I am still getting quotes. Donerail

donerail:

we’ll be on the next train up to Boston to build your wine cellar..but then again, we’d have to take all those good bottles of French wine you have, as payment for building your cellar

A wine cellar building party. Sounds great!

What a great internet site. I have LaVieilleBranche and SalB coming to build me a wine celler. All I have to do is give them a few gallons of Taylor in the screw-top bottle. All I have to do is figure out how to hide my French wines from them. Whata country! Donerail

donerail:

you can’t hide your French wines from me. I have a nose for good wines…

and besides, if I build the wine cellar, it’s me who will know all the little secret entrances/exits to the cellar…who knows?
you might go down there one evening to get up a good bottle of burgundy, and all your good bottles will suddenly be replaced by some Gallo "blush" wine…

hey, ya never know

LaVieilleBranch/SalB: My wine collection is guarded by two attack cats. They are very vicious unless you rub their bellies. Donerail

donerail:

here kitty here kitty….
have some delicious tuna/salmon/tasty fish

I’m very good with vicious kitties!

BTW, we used to live in NY and I haven’t heard of Taylor wine in years. For some odd reason, they don’t sell it in California!!

No French wine, no trip, no wine cellar . . .

SalB/LaVieilleBranche: The two of you: Stop it! Donerail

Think about this . . . Who started it?

donerail: she got ya on that one!

See, donerail, I didn’t even mention your name. We all know who started it. Perhaps we should get back to politics.

May I disagree with you on something?

Ikorrellim!!! Please come back. I know you wouldn’t lust for my wine. Donerail

Perhaps she’s visiting France right now. I’m sure she’ll be back.

Have a glass of wine and be patient.

donerail: can I choose the bottle of wine you’re going to open and drink while you’re patient? and by the way, do you share? SalB and I will be right along

Excellent suggestion. LaVieilleBranche can choose the wine! Shall we allow donerail to drink any or is this our pay for building the wine cabinet?

SalB: Good heavens no! only ONE bottle as pay? Never! His entire collection of French wine is up for grabs to whomever builds his lofty wine cellar! Of course that means he’ll have to rebuild his collection, but that should be easy. He’s going back to France again in November, so he can start then

OK. SalB and LaVieilleBranche, I’ve had enough. Both cats are now loose and have their orders. They will do their duty. You can have the whites, but don’t you dare touch the reds. Donerail

No reds . . . no work!

SalB/LaVieilleBranche: I offered you both gallons of Taylor. What more can I do? Although if the both of you show up with bugles and horns, I will concede the whole collection. Why are my cats laughing at me? Donerail

Taylor . . . Taylor!!

You expect us to build a wine cellar for Taylor? Good grief!!!!

Perhaps I’ll bring you some of that great British wine.

Taylor wine is good for killing snails and other bugs in my tomato garden, but NOT for drinking!!!!

SalB" it’s time to build those secret passages in donerail’s cellar so we can steal a bottle when we need to and he’ll never know :

British wine? you mean warm beer, don’t you?

There you go donerail, SalB will bring you back some great warm beer

Bonjour,

I am new to the forum and find it very interesting.
I leave in the US and being french is not always easy.
I am glad to see that other than my wife there are poeple interested in my mother land with its differences.
Regarding wine, it is always a challenge to find good french wine that has not been sitting up for month on a shelf.
I found a store in the Philadelphia area that is great for imported and US wines. They go around the world and choose the wine, then have it shipped in refrigerated containers. The store is called Moore Brothers (Google should give you their web site).

Bonne Journee.

Jissou.

Ah, wine . . . what a wonderful subject. In London they were selling Napa Valley wines! Since our daughter works there, we couldn’t complain but we did drink mostly beer and Italian wine while there. BTW, the beer we were served was not warm. It was cool, not cold. It was actually quite good. I had no problem with it . . . certainly much better than British wine!

jissou, I’ll look up Moore Brothers. We’ve gotten some pretty good French wines from Trader Joe’s and even from our local supermarkets. Obviously, the choice of California wines here is terrific.

LaVieilleBranche, secret passages sounds like an excellent idea. I’ll have to get my surveyor daughter involved. She also loves French wine. Poor donerail doesn’t stand a chance!!

jissou: Thanks for that Philly wine connection.

SalB and LaVieille Branche: I have enlisted the dog as security along with the two cats. The dog is not happy with this, but these are trying times. The wine collection is under total surveillance and we are contemplating getting AG Ashcroft as a consultant. Now get to work. Donerail

No problem . . . I have an electronic dog zapper. It doesn’t hurt him; just discourages him from attacking us. Your wine still isn’t safe.

On the other hand, if you’re getting Ashcroft, perhaps we should worry about torture!!

donerail: nothing like a cyanide steak for a guard dog

LaVieilleBranche I am shocked at you!!

My sonic dog zapper will do the job without hurting donerail’s pup and still get us our wine. No need for such drastic measures.

SalB: OK! You use the sonic dog zapper..let’s save the cyanide steak for Ashcroft

LaVieilleBranche, In the current climate of lost civil rights and right wing surveillance, you might not want to print such comments on a public forum. These days, one is never sure who is reading posts or what words have been put into government search engines.

Just a cautious suggestion. Wonder if sonic zappers work on attorney generals?!

SalB: I heard last month that the US Government does monitor public forums at visitfrance.travel, especially with the anti-French backlash going on.

GEORGE BUSH SUX! okie, I’m waiting for a knock on my door from the FBI now Welcome to the United States of Russia….

That was a BFI truck so it’s okay.

Dare I ask what a BFI truck is? . . . perhaps a subsidiary of the CIA? (I am joking!)

What odd times we live in.

SalB: I will make an attempt at translating for amero-franc. (That is a bad sign for me…) This is a longshot but I think he did mean a BFI truck. On the East Coast, a good deal of the city trash and garbage is picked up by incredibly dirty "BFI trucks." It is an abbreviation of their corporate name: Browning-Ferris Industries. At least I hope that is what the poor devil meant. Donerail

SalB: More on the BFI trucks. They are very noisy – always banging around dumpsters and stuff. You always want to be upwind of them. They have to be the most filthy vehicles in North America. No offense to your neck of the woods, LaVieille Branche, but two years ago I saw a big wreck on the southbound NJ Turnpike. Two BFI trucks collided. An amazing site. I hope there were no visitors from Paris that day. Aren’t those green Maire d’Paris trucks beautiful? Donerail

I am American and I find this all to be very interesting. I am very much into the French culture, language, and so forth. I am going to take a Euro trip to England, France, Germany, and
Switzerland. I am only 16 years of age and my families genealogy comes from France. My Great-Grandfather fought for the French in WWI and imigrated here to America after the war and fought for the U.S. in WWII. And my Great-Grandmother is from Canada… I think Quebec.

Anyways my Great-Grandfather fought in D-Day and risked his life for France. I am just curious if you guys have fogotten about that… Look back at all things we have done for your country. Fought in alliance by your sides in war and much more. I do not understand why our two countries are so bitter towards one another, I think we could learn much form each other and are very similar.

I am American but do not think I am no greater than any other person from another country, etc. I do realize the American Dream seems to be forgotten and much of todays society seems to that of the 1920’s.
But I think no matter what happens our nation is one and wil be united forever. Whether the rest of the world likes it or not we are the Super Power. Yes we may get involved with situations where we should just but out,but look at what happened when we didn’t. Example War in Europe, War everywhere… the execution of humans.

Well I am for the French but America is where I was born and I am lucky to have the life I have. Yes many countries NOW are very much the same as to the U.S. but not all are.

Also, isn’t true one of the reasons why France, Germany, and Russia didn’t go to war with Iraq was because of the oil deals with Iraq.
Another thing, isn’t it true that France is selling weapons to China, liek billions of dollars worth of weapons beacuse soon China can have a full force military or something(not too sure about that one).

Thank you!
au revoir

HollisterSurfer: Welcome to the forums. America is a great country and I am proud to be an American. I served in the Army some 37 years ago and I can relate to your enthusiasm. I felt the same way when I was your age. I learned some hard lessons along the way. We must be careful with our Nationalistic spirit. We have had only three wars on our land. The French and the rest of Europe have had wars for hundreds of years. As you have so thoughtfully observed, and at such a young age, wars are a problem. Again, welcome to the forums. The point of view of our nation’s youth is important and I look forward to more of your posts. Donerail

HollisterSurfer, Welcome to the forums. My grandfather also fought in WW1, my father in WW2, my husband in Viet Nam and one of our daughters in the Gulf War.

Yes, we have helped France, but don’t forget that we probably would not have won the American Revolution if the French had not helped us, so we owed them. Believe me, the French have not forgotten D-Day. We just got back from Europe and were there for the D-Day celebrations. It was all over the news and thousands of people attended D-Day celebrations everywhere.

I don’t think the French and Americans are bitter toward one another. The governments currently disagree on many policy matters and there are always those who jump on the bandwagon to bash whatever group appears to be out of favor so there are Frenchmen who espouse disliking Americans and there are Americans who espouse disliking the French. These are a minority, however, and most of us carry on with our daily lives while wishing our governments would come to detente.

China does have a military. In fact they have a larger military than we do. They, fortunately, are not as well equipped as we are. As far as France, Germany and Russia selling arms to China. Quite frankly, all the countries who are capable of manufacturing arms are trying to sell them to anyone who will buy them. That includes the U.S. Arms are big money just like oil is big money. If you want a good book, find "The Arms of the Krupps." I hope I have the title right, but you can Google the Krupps. You’ll learn more than you ever wanted to know about weapons, wars and arms dealings.

Yes, we are a superpower, but so was Rome! I hope we last as long as they did. Each age in history had a superpower and in its time, each superpower faded into history and someone else took over. Nothing is forever.

It’s good to be proud of your country and you should be since it’s a great country. Do keep up with news, current events and learn as much history as you can so you can be a responsible voter. The more educated responsible voters we have, the longer our government will last. When we start taking things for granted and assuming we’ll last forever, we start the downhill slide into obscurity.

BTW, I’m the Forum Mom. I don’t mean to lecture. I’m just a babbler. It really is good to hear your opinions and you write very well.

Ok thank you for all the information, i like everyones different perspectives.

Some things that i discuss i may sound a little naive about them.. but oh well, this is what interests me and the only way to learn is to ask.

The whole weapon selling thing is France and Germany want to drop Tiananmen Square sanctions against selling weapons to China. In fact, French Defense Minister Michele Alliot-Marie recently proposed sharing sensitive military technology with Beijing. And now France, Germany, and China also including Russia are collabarating on different projects. Such as space stuff, nuclear testing, and weapon stuff.

Heres an article i found on the oil trades between countries:

French oil deals
threatened by war on Iraq

BY PAUL PEDERSON
Behind the opposition of the French government to a U.S.-led invasion of Iraq lie massive trade deals with Baghdad and investments in the oil wealth of the Middle Eastern country.
French imperialism has profited handsomely from UN-controlled trade with Iraq in the past 12 years of UN-imposed sanctions. Currently French firms account for 22.5 percent of all goods imported into Iraq, scooping up an annual gross profit of $1.5 billion from this trade.

The French oil company, TotalFinaElf, has negotiated oil deals that would give it control over 25 percent of Iraqs oil reserves. French companies have signed 798 contracts for parts and equipment for the Iraqi oil industry.

While the capitalists in Germany lag far behind their French rivals, they still pull in some $350 million in direct annual trade with Iraq.

The Russian and Chinese workers states each accounts for 5.8 percent of Iraqs imports. Russia has signed 862 UN-approved contracts to supply oil industry equipment and parts, while China has signed 227 such agreements.

These deals with Baghdad are threatened by a U.S.-led overthrow of the Saddam Hussein government. The alternative course promoted by Paris, Berlin, and others is to bolster the brutal UN-imposed status quo of economic sanctions and military-backed inspections.

I found all of this to be quite interesting and thought perhaps it would be to you, too.

Also i do realize the fact of the American Revoltuion being aided by the French. We were such strong allies and now it seemed to turn opposite with the U.S. being strong allies with U.K. I think it’s ironic. lol

Thank you!

Every once in a while we need to go back to a quote from Eisenhower: "Beware of the Military-Industrial Complex." I am in the industry and it is, indeed, something to beware. The Middle East is jam packed with US, French, British, German, Italian, and Israeli defense stuff. The world is following our lead. Our defense companies (mine included) lobby Washington very fiercely. It is truly scary. Couple that with religious right wingers (not just in the US) and it gets scarier. HollisterSurfer is so young and so observant. Donerail

Welcome HollisterSurfer,

You seemed to have been keeping up on this. stay tuned and this could be quite interesting. I too am descended from the French although not quite as soon as you. I am a desendant from the Huguenots as well some Canadian French. My great grand father also served in WWI.

My main difference between some of my comrades on this forum is that I like you believe that cultures have a right to govern themselves. That means France Germany the u.S. etc. There has been many outside influences that have taken away this God-given right. The UN the EU etc. I think that the u.S. had a right to defend itself. My problem with the French is not that they are French it’s that they aren’t French enough. They think that the world is one big country.

Many of my comrades are creating a hysteria about the different nations defense systems. The reason why they say this is because that if no nations have a defense they eventually will cease to exist. They want a world country.

The different nations defense systems is like our bodies immune systems. We shouldn’t need to use them, but if we didn’t have them we would cease to exist. If the Star Wars program that Reagan started and Bush is trying to finish, but be allowed to continue, launchable nukes all aver the world would eventually become useless. and if other nations would adopt a program like Star Wars that problem would be stopped.

I think that every culture has a right to defend and govern itself. This means native Americans, French Arabs etc. Like I said before if you don’t like the Arabs in France either let them govern themselves or deport them somewhere else where they can.

France needs to be saved from this cultural crumble as well.

This is why I say, Vive la vrai France! Vive les États Unis!

A big help to understanding the Middle East crisis is an understanding of the oil crisis to come. The latest issue of the National Geographic had an excellent article about the oil remaining in the world and where it is located and how it can be accessed. It is not a political article, but does make it very obvious why we are in the Middle East and why the countries that opposed us did so and why the countries that supported us did so. You just look at where the rest of the oil is and the entire political scene makes perfect sense. The humanitarian raison d’être fades into the background as a smoke screen and/or justification for a purely selfish economic act.

There are viable alternative energy sources and they are deliberately not being developed. One needs to ask why? The corridors of power are controlled by the military industrial complex and as long as they hang on with our tacit approval, we will have war in the Middle East. We could just as easily make the Middle East totally unnecessary to our daily lives but someone somewhere has chosen not to . . . and we have allowed this. That’s why we must vote!

We are not defending ourselves against an enemy in the Middle East. Let’s face it, if we wanted to wipe out the entire Middle East, we could easily do it . . . and probably fairly quickly. They are not a threat to us, so obviously the war was not defensive. Anyone who believes that, believes the US is weak.

Regarding the Star Wars defense system . . . every test they’ve done has failed. It is expensive and useless. The solution to missle defense is for everyone to communicate, everyone to respect each other, everyone to decide to do what is best for their citizens and then we won’t need a missle defense system. We also need to be able to defend ourselves, i.e. an intelligent, well equipped military. The best defense is a good offense and so it has ever been. The trick is to negotiate from a position of power . . . but to negotiate!

You are so wrong about the Star Wars program.

Do you not remember the first few hours we were in Iraq? We used the Patriot Missiles are brought most of the baslistic missles down.

I’m sorry, you must have missed all the tv shows and news articles showing how the Patriot missles did not bring anything down. Most of them missed their targets and it was a huge scandal for a week or so.

Perhaps you could find this on the BBC, CNN or major news web sites. It’s a very interesting read . . . scary but informative.

They did make great tv though with all the bright flashes in the Baghdad night sky!

amero-franc: you remind me of a character in a scene from Monty Python’s "Search For The Holy Grail." It is the Black Knight who continues to fight and taunt his adversary even after his arms and legs have been cut off in a skirmish. Wherever you get your news or "facts" – you may want to consider changing sources. Donerail

donerail: he probably gets his "news" from "sources" at anti-French, pro Bush websites. Life is easier since I ignore him now

Okay your right it was a mistype. The Patriot missles were a failure during the 1st Gulf War. I was talking about the Patriot III missles that were over all a success. I know that is wasn’t 100% accurate, but they brought most of them down. I didn’t get this from a frenge source. I just remember this on the main news. It is also still documented, if you don’t believe me.

Hey, when people were talking about the A-bomb they scoffed at the idea as well. It’s a modern world.

Amero-franc: If they aimed the Patriot missile at the Atlantic Ocean, it would be lucky if it could hit the Pacific. Donerail

Amero-Franc, It was the Patriot missiles in the current Gulf fiasco that all misfired. Truly, look it up on CNN, BBC, ABC, CBS, NBC or even Fox news. It was a huge scandal for about a week and then some other news (probably about an errant sports star) took the spotlight again.

The missiles basically blew up in the Baghdad sky, made a great tv show and didn’t hit anything.

Living on the west coast, I’ve watched tests of the darn things that have had to be blown up because they went the wrong direction and were headed into Mexican air space. Rather than cause an international incident, they blow them up. It’s very dramatic . . . but it does nothing to make me feel secure in case of missile attack by a foreign power.

It all looked great until they did some in depth analysis. This entire war has looked great until someone has done some in depth analysis. It’s a fiasco any way you look at it any more and I have no idea how we get out at this point. If the press would just report the news instead of telling us how wonderful and successful everything is before anyone has a clue whether it is successful or not, we might have a better understanding of what is going on in the war.

Bottom line: Don’t believe everything you see. Wait until the reports come in a few months later.

You’re right about "I didn’t get this from a fringe source. I just remember this on the main news. It is also still documented, if you don’t believe me."

The main news documented what they THOUGHT they saw . . . what we all thought we saw. It was later when they analyzed the data they realized the missiles hadn’t done their job. Believe me, we all saw exactly what you saw and no one is disputing that.

Somehow our successes (or supposed successes) get much better press than our failures, but they did report the failure too . . . just not as vehemently.

"The missiles basically blew up in the Baghdad sky…"

Okay now I see what your talking about. I think you’re talking about the GPS guided Tomahawk missles that hid Baghdad. What I’m talking about are those Patriot III missiles. We sent them up when Sadam launched those missiles at Kuwait right at the start of the war last year. We blew most of them out of the sky. There is really no other way we could analyse the data except for what was on the computers and hope that you find no more dents in the ground.

Is the Patriot missile even a part of the Star Wars system?
Did Iraq even launch any scuds during this war, I thought
they only launched during the first Gulf war.
Anyway with regard to the first Gulf war, the Pentagon
did announce in 1998 that the Patriot did NOT work as
well as reported. They put the overall effective rate
at about 30%. Seem like a low number, but when you got missiles
coming at you, I guess its a little comfort.
Now I believe they have a new and improved version of the
Patriot on line today but I did not think they had
occasion to use it, not sure.
Sal B you are right about all Star Wars tests being failures, but
some of the early tests where faked to look like sucesses.
Apperantly it did fool Soviet agents.

Yes, the Patriot III is part of the Star Wars system. I can show you some pictures of the last big test in the Pacific taken from Guam if you wish. You can see right where the trails contratict and then ends.

Amero-franc: We’ll all be living in the canals of Mars before you will see Star Wars being successful. It is a classic example of Pentagon Pork looking for a home. It is stunning how we squander our wealth. Meanwhile the price of good Bordeaux red is going thru the roof and we have potholes the size of Volkswagons. This madness must stop – at least in my lifetime. Donerail

donerail, I hope you’re planning to live a veeeeeeeeeeeery long time.

"Two missiles were intercepted by Patriots, a third was shot down by Kuwaiti military using a Patriot and a fourth missile landed harmlessly inside Kuwaiti territory. At least one of the missiles was a Scud, and the others are thought to be al Samoud 2 missiles, or a variant."

-WorldNetDaily

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31604

LaVieilleBranche,

Now’s the time when you change the subject and talk about your journeys to France.

Sweird: Reading LaVieilleBranche’s travels to LaFrance is a hell of a lot more enjoyable than reading your jibberish. The only thing noteworthy about your posts is the outrageous grammar – and after a while that gets boring. Donerail

donerail: thank you for the voice of support on my travels Now that I’m officially on summer vacation (yipeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee) I will finish my photos and put them online in the photo album

Sweird: Yes, you’re right…now I can talk about my travels to France. Where the food is wonderful, the people are very kind and helpful, the French women are beautiful! how lovely the countryside is, with the fields full of wheat, or other tasty crops. Where you see so many cows everywhere. When you go to sleep in the Jura, you can hear in the distance the melody of tuned cow bells ringing in the breeze as the cows walk the fields and graze, even in the dark of night.

http://gallery.completecomputing.com/denise sweird, go look at a beautiful part of the world that an ignorant person like yourself won’t ever understand.

LaVieilleBranche: LaFrance really is such a nice country. Another likable attribute is the French penchant for fashion. That is really neat. In contrast, it seems we have a penchant for concrete and aluminum. But we do have the Red Sox and that is what redeems us. Donerail

donerail: sorry, I prefer the fashion to the Red Sox. However, if you could make those uniforms fashionable…then maybe I might start to find something to like about them…..