WWII

Hello ctb and welcome to the forums.

This is an interesting question you’re asking. I don’t think the French really take pride in their attitude during WWII. We know we have much to be ashamed of, namely our behaviour during the first weeks of war, although we may have some *excuses* (i.e., the trauma from WWI). After that, it becomes blurred.

After the war, De Gaulle, who was a "first-hour resistant" as we say here, has always tried to build a portrait of a glorious resistant France. Therefore, the official stance was : France was occupied by an enemy force against its will — it was backed by a handful of fascist supporters — but the vast majority of French remained loyal to democracy and the Republic, and tried to resist as much as they could.

Well, an accurate study of History proves that this wasn’t 100 % true. France was occupied against its will, but everyone was relieved by Marshall Pétain’s armistice that stopped the war. Then, occupied France continued to work, thanks to its French administration backbone, including the French police — that occasionally would give a hand to round up and help deport hundred of jews. As for the French Resistance, well, there were very few resistants in 1941, but there were so many in 1944-45.

I remember when I was a school kid back in the 80s, I would ask my fellow schollmates about what their grandfathers had done during WWII. They all would tell me about what a glorious resistant their grandfather had been. I guess it’s just natural, everyone likes to side with the heroes and the victors.

To sum up this difficult era, I like to speak of my grandmother’s example. Just plain ordinary people struggling during war times and trying to make a living (my grandmother was in her late teens, and her father had just died). Giving a hand to the Resistance when they could, but above everything, just trying to stay alive.

My grandma was working in some printing shop. Once, the Resistance came, and asked her boss whether he could print a few flyers for them. The boss agreed to it, and they did it for a few months. But then, the boss got scared, and he stopped doing it, cos he said it was too risky. He then stopped going to work as well, and just stayed home. So did my grandma, for she couldn’t work if her boss wasn’t there. About two weeks later, the Germans came, rounded up the building, and shot everyone that was still working at the printing shop. They even killed the driver from the delivery truck who had nothing to do with it and was just there delievering paper and ink.

So, my grandma is happy that she and her boss had stopped printing those flyers on time. She is not ashamed to tell the story. She also tells a lot of stories about how she had to cycle for 50 km in order to lay hand on some butter, or how her house was searched at night by the French police working together with the German army, or the times when the USAAF bombed down a whole neighbourhood in Lyon, because the B-29 were flying so high they couldn’t possibly aim properly. She also tells me about how she saw two US soldiers walking down her street once, and she and her mother invited them over for fresh lemonade. One of them was cute, and he took a picture from her.

CRC

The French have never forgiven themselves nor their liberators for liberating them, therefore, their take on events…that some Frenchmen feel that they liberated themselves.

I would think that in some small way, this same reverse attitude could be attributed to the Swiftboat’s for Truth…They are not angry with Kerry for his medals, they are angry with him for having the courage to stand up at the tender age of 27 before a Congressional and tell America, the world and Nixon’s group, about the fruitlessness of the Vietnam Cause…but, they are further angered (and I can’t make sense of this one), at Kerry, McCain and I believe Max Cleland for going to Vietnam, helping to normalize relationships with Vietnam, and being able to bring home all but 35 (I believe) of our veterans remains…Perhaps to keep their sanity, they need to "hate" and with normalization of relations with Vietnam, their hate has been bottled up and is now transferring to Kerry and his unfitness for command. John O’Neil, (co-author) of Swiftboats for Truth was a "hired gun" in the seventies, hired by Richard Nixon and Colson to go against Kerry in debates, etc. Perhaps he is still angry that Kerry was right and he was wrong and wants to even the score. His co-author Corsi is a bigot who has made some pretty terrible statements against Jews, Catholics, etc. It is a shame that the Bush backers in Texas lay in the same bed with this bunch. I certainly hope that it does not affect the outcome of this election and swing the election to Bush. Bush is a slime-ball (What Bush’s father called Michael Moore for his documentary)…him and his republican co-horts have slimed Cleland, McCain and now Kerry (all true American Heros)…They should be ashamed of themselves…but, of course, they are not…their aim is to stay in power at all costs…Heaven forbid that they get out of power and the American people really find out what has been going on in their "secret" administration…

hello ikorrellim, nice to see you back in the forums….

hmmmmmmmmmm…is this the same ikorrellim who slandered the French and anything that was anti-Bush and not ‘American"?

or is this a new and improved ikorrellim ?

crc95: Thank you for that post. I could almost see the scenes that you were relating. It was very moving. Thanks again.

ikorrellim: I did not expect that. Thank you.

Donerail

Donerail, maybe you could almost see the scenes because you’ve been watching a lot of "US army in Iraq" footage lately … lol

Ok that was mean of me I know

CRC

crc95,

Thank you for a french viewpoint, I appreciate it. My father fought in WWII and everyone involved went through so much.

ctb: I agree with you. As covered in Tom Brokaw’s book, they truly can lay claim to The Greatest Generation. Donerail

My Father was with Patton…My uncle was a POW in a German Camp for three years…shot down over Germany…My two uncles served in Japan during the "occupation"…

I have read both books, twice, The Greatest Generation and The Greatest Generation Speaks…and I can attest to the fact, through family ties, that it was truly The Greatest Generation.

My brother, retired Major Marine Corps, used to ask our Father about the war, but my Father never shared much about his experiences, neither did my uncle (POW)…THE ONLY time they would share anything was when they were asked by us, their children, neices, nephews, and for the most part…the news was, I am sure, told in a way as not to disclose too much…The worse thing that I have heard, and it was from my Father, when my brother was questioning him was that he was assigned to an artillery gun and that the artillery gun crews literally had to step over the bodies as they moved up as the battles progressed…My uncle, the POW told me that the Germans were not "mean" to them…as far as Officer status went, he did not know how they treated the enlisted personnel…He said they did not have enough to eat, but then added, but neither did the guards…

Since I am a history buff an avid reader, I do recall reading a book some years back when Dutch Schulz’s son was wounded that, a patrol of American troops and a patrol of German troops passed within yards of each other one night and each patrol pretended that they did not see the other…

As my ninth grade math teacher told us (he was one that was minus fingernails…pulled out when he was a POW), and I remember this statement well because it impressed me so much and was my first knowledge of war, and the statement was: "The dried up old beans in Washington make the wars and send the cream of the crop to fight and die for it."….What a true statement…THINK ABOUT IT…Do we see Bush/Cheney’s military records of combat? Do we see their children in the National Guard or in the service? I can see why George Bush Sr. pulled strings to keep his son stateside and in the National Guard…HE HAD SEEN THE HORRORS OF WAR…That is why Kerry would as he states, "war would be the last option after all else had failed", he has seen the horrors of war. Bush/Cheney were quick to go to war…Why, because they had not seen the horrors of war…first hand…their Macho Man ego’s are restored and venticated by sending other peoples children to war to die and get maimed for life…What a shame…It is a shame that we cannot make them go to Iraq and serve a tour of duty…that should be their punishment for what they have done…

Anyway, I am on the Steering Committee for "Veterans for Kerry" in the state of South Carolina…and I am urging all of you who believe that America still has a future to get out and vote…Look at this election as the election where ONE vote can decide the outcome…and PLEASE if you will talk to five other people and lay out the issues…and get five other people to the polls…Perhaps we can truly take our country back…In closing, if Kerry does get elected, he sure does have a mess to clean up after Bush/Cheney…But, I think he is up to the task…

What you wrote reminds me of my great-grand-father, who fought during WWI, which to my opinion is the bloodiest massacre ever fought in history. My GGF had been to the worst places in this war, and was wounded 3 times, last time was in the head, and he was believed to be dead. He would NEVER tell about his war experience. The very few things we know is because sometimes at night he would wake up after a nightmare, and would confess some stories to my great-grand-mother. His stories remind me a lot of All quiet on the western front .

I have this opinion about veterans : the more they have fought and suffered, the less they talk about it. I’ve also seen this with French veterans from the Algerian war of independance. This was a very dirty war, during which the French army used torture on a wide scale. Well, I know quite a few vets from this war, and none of them will tell about it.

CRC

ikorrelim: THANK YOU for such an honest and open discussion of events from your family. It must be difficult for you to state these things in an open forum. You are 100% right….

I had family in France who were forced at gunpoint by the Germans to fight against their own country and against their own beliefs. Not all of them survived the brutality. Those who did survive live in the shadow of their experiences and live in fear of another war. The few things they have told me about the war were terrible. If more politicans were veterans, war would be the last option.

ikorrelim: Thank you again for your candid post.

LVB: Isn’t it amazing how we are gushing in our appreciation of ikorrellim? What is happening to this world? Donerail

My grandfather was in France in WWI and he absolutely would not talk about it. I only discovered he was there when I found a small wooden shoe in their attic one day while helping my grandmother clean house. She told me he was in France and would not talk about it. There was an old gas mask in a big box she later showed me.

On the Bush/Kerry front, the company our son works for took away the health insurance for all but actual employees this past year. They may insure their families but it comes out of their pay checks, i.e. a huge salary decrease. Anyhow, our son said, "A vote for Bush is a vote to increase poverty." He didn’t think it was a particularly effective campaign slogan however accurate it might be!

Wonder if Bill Gates has health insurance?! (Probably doesn’t need it.)

SalB: It is difficult to be able to afford medical insurance as we have to spend our money on weapons and bombs to use on the rest of the world. And don’t forget the Star Wars program. Donerail

Some poor female politician in Canada called the Star Wars program idiocy (rightly) and the prime minister is trying to get her to apologize. So far she has resisted. Good for her!

donerail: you have to give ikorrelim credit, she spoke the truth.

Hello,

I’m new to this board and i’ll speak about my region, the northernmost region of France, during the "occupation"
My region, the Nord-Pas-de-Calais (80 % of the bombs dropped on France during WW2, The flee from Dunkirk in1940), had been, for military reasons and probably for the coal it had in its underground, attached to the Brussel military commandment.

Therefore, the German military presence was so dense in this area, making hard for any resistance organisation to establish an efficient network.

At this time, many miners set themselves in state of strike, to bug the german war effort and slow down coal extraction that would deserve the german war machine…

When time had come to kick the enemy out, they were there to take arms aside from the Allied…

So i think Resistance took a great part in the liberation of France; without its action, the success of the landings would have been compromised and perhaps many more American soldiers would have died in normandy, but be sure France would never have been able to break its chains without the GIs

My grandpa told me stories a bout ww2. He and his cousin took part in the d-day Normandy invasion. He lived, his cousin died. I remember one story he told me a bout how he and some of the men in his company where walking down the street in one of the towns, when they where waved over by a French woman. Apparently there was a German unit coming their way. They hid in the woman?s house till the Germans left. My grandpa told me if it wasn?t for this woman, he and his friend would of walked right to the Germans and who knows what would of happend. My grandpa got to go back to Normandy one last time last year durning that big d-day event be for he passed a way. He got a purple heart during the normandy invashon. I wanted to go with him but never got a chance. He would all ways talk a bout going back one last time and he did. He was happy he did.

oddone: Here is an icebreaker with your g/f parents. Ask them why it is that US taxdollars have to pay for the maintenance and upkeep of the cemetaries where all the GI’s are buried in France (Colville sur Mer et al.) One would have thought that LaFrance would be doing this gratis since the GI’s freed them from the Nazis. That should get a dialog going. Donerail

Donerail: Or stop communication completely

OD:
I think that your story about your grandfather in WWII would be a great thing to share with your girlfriend’s parents. It’s a nice story about cameraderie and appreciation. It might cut some of the more contentious topics and help warm them up a little. It’s hard enough meeting parents of a significant other without having tempers flare over politics! Good luck!!!

When do you go?

HG15

thanks hg and donrail.Ill tell them a bout my grandfather and when i get to know them ill ask them a bout the other thing as well.Im leaveing on june 1st.Thanks for the good luck (sorry a bout the spelling im lazy to night and sleepy from doing lots and lots of studdying lol )